troy fairweather
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I noticed the ss 10/22 underneath. Made there practicing Dodgeball with the wrench lol.
Undecided - Long Range Precision Rifle - Help Please
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Varminterror
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Assuming you can find a load which shoots ~1moa at 100yrds as expected from a quality AR, and assuming you have an appropriate scope for the task, and assuming you give the rifle the support it needs, AND assuming you have or develop the skill to do it, I generally expect a 223/5.56 AR to be able to reach 600-800 yards on 10-12” targets without much trouble. Getting to 1,000 can be very ammo dependent - a feat with a 16” barrel shooting 50grn bullets, less so with a 24” shooting 77’s - but 600-800yards should be easily within your grasp.
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MR WICK
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Wow. I've never tried doing that with my AR. I've just been shooting the 22LR. I would be happy to nail 500 yards. To me that would be a big accomplishment.
You've seen my Savage Arms A22. I've never gone past 250 - 300 yards with it. I've been so busy working its been tough to get to the range. What would you say the maximum distance for that rifle is?
And thanks for answering all of my questions.
Nice
I shot HP with a service rifle and we shot out to 600 yards. With iron sights.
My old go to rifle 20 years ago had an acog 4x on it and I used to shoot a 10” plate easily at 500 yards.
the challenge with 223 is it sucks in the wind. But Ammo is cheap (relatively) and it’s good way to practice wind reading.
My old go to rifle 20 years ago had an acog 4x on it and I used to shoot a 10” plate easily at 500 yards.
the challenge with 223 is it sucks in the wind. But Ammo is cheap (relatively) and it’s good way to practice wind reading.
rayatphonix
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Interesting thread. I’ve followed it from day 1. I think you’ve chosen a good rifle and cartridge to start with. After a scope I might recommend you consider taking a long range shooting class. While I was very comfortable shooting at 300 yards, I didn’t really know how to move out to 1000 yards. The money I spent on the class ($400) was considerably less than I’d have spent on ammo trying to figure it out, and I got a lot more out of it.
There were 8 of us in the class. A couple of 308’s, three 6.5 CM’s, two 6 CM’s, and one 270 W. All of us were hitting steel at 1200 yards on day two. I believe two of the shooters were using Ruger LRP’s just like yours. Cartridge & rifle weren’t as nearly as important as technique.
Good luck and enjoy.
There were 8 of us in the class. A couple of 308’s, three 6.5 CM’s, two 6 CM’s, and one 270 W. All of us were hitting steel at 1200 yards on day two. I believe two of the shooters were using Ruger LRP’s just like yours. Cartridge & rifle weren’t as nearly as important as technique.
Good luck and enjoy.
Nature Boy
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Check.
Check - Leupold Mk4 LR/T 4.5-14x50
Check - Atlas Bipod with squeeze bag in the rear
OK, here’s where it’s falling apart for me. I have no problem shooting a .223 into one hole at 100 yards and 20 shots inside 1 MOA at 500 yards IF it’s one of my bolt action target rifles, however, an AR isn’t a target rifle.
I spent 2 frustrating hours at the range on Saturday trying to drive this rifle in a consistent and repeatable manner and failing 2 out of 10 times. I’m loading more ammo and will give it another go today. My expectations are the biggest limitation at this point. Shooting at AR well isn’t easy
edit: I should probably state my goal. I’m looking to keep 60 rounds inside a 2 MOA circle at 600 yards
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Zerodefect
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Check for loose scope, or unlevel scope.
Try better ammo. Maybe heavier, maybe lighter.
Could be a sketchy barrel.
AR's are easy to shoot at man sized targets. Start there and work your accuracy down. A 12" target seems reasonable. They're only harder until they aren't. There's always a reason for them shooting poorly.
No rear bag or bipod on my carbine, and I'm shooting apples at 100. I'll need a steadier set of bags to do better.
Try better ammo. Maybe heavier, maybe lighter.
Could be a sketchy barrel.
AR's are easy to shoot at man sized targets. Start there and work your accuracy down. A 12" target seems reasonable. They're only harder until they aren't. There's always a reason for them shooting poorly.
No rear bag or bipod on my carbine, and I'm shooting apples at 100. I'll need a steadier set of bags to do better.
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This is what confused me too, the idea that two-stage triggers were lumped in with barrel fluting.
I've been banging that drum for years on this forum. I used to enjoy your posts re your adventures with various really nice rifles and optics, neat targets, cool scenery, images taken through the scope with ranging exercises etc. You were way ahead of everyone else.
Varminterror
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Depends on the scope you have on top, and the base and rings into which it’s saddled. The wheels tend to come off of 22LR past 300, but on a full size IPSC, but I generally expect a 22LR to be capable of hitting a man sized to 24” round target to somewhere between 400-500 yards. It takes a lot of optic to get there, requiring 25-30mils of dialing from a 100 yard zero. Cheap, bulk pack ammo typically need not apply, however.
Miss those days.
Here’s my tip of the day: don’t get divorced lol
Varminterror
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There are parameters which significantly influence precision and “shootability,” and there are parameters which offer distinction without significant difference or which fall under individual subjective preference, with very little actual influence on precision.
Some shooters might prefer a two stage trigger, some a single - but competition performance illustrates one does not make a more accurate rifle than the other (or maybe I should admit that competition trends DO show favor for one type, and single stage triggers own the line). So as I mentioned, there are far more important things for a new LR shooter to be studying today than single vs. 2 stage or fluted vs. non.
Been there and done that but am still good friends with the ex (was married 22 years). We went on two trips to Switzerland after we divorced and talk regularly, and she'll often remind me to leave the Python to her. She gets everything I own anyway and hopefully will outlive me by many years.
That's because the PRS and similar are it's own entity. Two stage triggers offer tangible safety advantages in addition to all-weather advantages, both of which aren't important in the PRS, and for many they do provide accuracy/precision advantages. How many PRS rifles will actually pass jar-off and drop tests with their 1.5lb single-stage triggers? I work for a major firearms company that conducts drop and jar-off tests so far above and beyond the required standard it's not even funny, because liability and lawsuits aren't.
I can post photos of the 1st stage and 2nd stage sear engagement in my Accuracy International rifles if you doubt the veracity of my claim that two-stage triggers offer increased safety for real world use.
I can say for a fact that a Kimber Open Country rifle with a Proof barrel and with a factory single-stage trigger set to 3.5lb (lowest advertised) with a scope of typical weight installed will pass the six position jar-off test onto a rubber mat with a durometer measurement of around 80 from a height of 3 feet. I no longer work for Kimber but I was involved in this specific test.
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Varminterror
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Moving the goalpost doesn’t support your argument. Safety isn’t precision.
I’m sorry you apparently take personal offense to a claim two stage triggers aren’t a critical parameter for precision, PRS, F-Class, ELR, and Benchrest alike, but facts is facts. This new shooter will be better served to learn about the handful of other “big knobs” before he settles in on whether he subjectively prefers two or single stage triggers, or decides his opinion around trigger safety, regardless of influence on actual precision.
And frankly, it’s a lame excuse to continually paint me as only a PRS shooter, as if I can’t or don’t have knowledge and experience beyond the realm of PRS, simply because I shoot PRS currently. You’re ignoring the fact single stage triggers remain to dominate every precision shooting discipline on the planet, save gas gun games. This is the kind of distraction the new shooter should not be experiencing - pointing at PRS as some unique world which doesn’t conform to conventional fundamentals of precision, doesn’t make sense here. Two stage versus single stage has nothing to do with PRS shooting.
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I don't take any personal offense at all. I have rifles with both two-stage and single-stage triggers but I don't see the entire world of rifles through the lenses of PRS tinted glasses. Do I prefer a two-stage trigger to a single-stage trigger in a precision rifle ... absolutely.
The idea that a two-stage trigger is a detriment to precision is laughable.
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Varminterror
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As do I, and I expect hundreds of thousands of other shooters.
Nor do I, as evidenced in my multiple posts in this thread extolling that this OP likely is not best served by a “PRS rifle.”
Two stage triggers have actually made a considerable surge in popularity in PRS since the advent of the Calvin Elite 2 stage. We didn’t see the common mix of two stage triggers until the last couple of years. Not a majority stake, by any stretch, but guys are talking around 10-15% within most clubs, as opposed to what had been “near zero” previously (other than Savage/RPR type “two stage triggers” in factory rifles, of course).
If you can find anywhere that I claimed a two stage trigger as detrimental to precision, I’d eat my hat.
But it’s accurate to acknowledge:
1) The subjective preference of various shooters does not constitute a fundamental of marksmanship, let alone a critical fundamental which should be one of the top 6 aspects of long range marksmanship upon which this or any new shooter should be focusing.
2) Single stage triggers dominate every competitive firing line in every Precision discipline, except gas gun sports, an aspect to which I was being more generous earlier in respecting subjective parity between the two.
This is a great example of @taliv’s point above - so much individually subjective **** gets poured into threads like this that neophytes can’t tell which way is up. YOU prefer two stage triggers, but telling a newbie to focus in on a two stage trigger, as if anything is wrong with their rifle without it isn’t doing them justice. The dude just needs to grab a rifle with a suitable optic and cartridge and go shoot 1,000 yards. Wind, trigger control, and positional stability will cause 1000x more misses at 1,000yrds than any difference between single or two stage triggers.
@Varminterror, go back and read my first response in this thread. I merely asked you to explain the following, nothing more, nothing less.
You put two-stage triggers and barrel fluting on the same level which I simply don't agree with since one is related to firearm safety and the other not. I never suggested that the OP choose a two-stage trigger, and from the perspective of precision made no claim that a two-stage trigger is superior. On the other hand, you did in a passive aggressive way state that single-stage triggers are superior for precision with the following statement:
My response to that was to make the point that real two-stage triggers have tangible safety benefits, again saying nothing about their application in precision.
Many don't know about the safety implications of two stage triggers often referring to the first stage movement as "creep". Many don't know how two-stage triggers work and didn't grow up shooting rifles with two-stage triggers so have an aversion to them. The other big barrier to two-stage triggers is that the Remington 700 on which so many receivers are based today, doesn't lend itself to a true two-stage trigger mechanism. Many of the triggers marketed as two-stage are not true, just as the Savage trigger is not.
Varminterror said:
You put two-stage triggers and barrel fluting on the same level which I simply don't agree with since one is related to firearm safety and the other not. I never suggested that the OP choose a two-stage trigger, and from the perspective of precision made no claim that a two-stage trigger is superior. On the other hand, you did in a passive aggressive way state that single-stage triggers are superior for precision with the following statement:
Varminterror said:
My response to that was to make the point that real two-stage triggers have tangible safety benefits, again saying nothing about their application in precision.
Many don't know about the safety implications of two stage triggers often referring to the first stage movement as "creep". Many don't know how two-stage triggers work and didn't grow up shooting rifles with two-stage triggers so have an aversion to them. The other big barrier to two-stage triggers is that the Remington 700 on which so many receivers are based today, doesn't lend itself to a true two-stage trigger mechanism. Many of the triggers marketed as two-stage are not true, just as the Savage trigger is not.
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Varminterror
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Indeed I did. Because neither significantly influence Precision/accuracy sufficiently for a new shooter to be wasting time focusing on either in the early days of their learning curve.
If you choose to cast a stone at all single stage triggers as unsafe, then fine, that’s your prerogative.
But you’re arguing with yourself on that issue, and notably moving the goalpost from any statement I have made. I’ve not made any claims about trigger weight nor safety in this thread, so any inference you are making from my statement regarding either is inapt. Rather, it seems more that you either are projecting BS against me personally (such as your snarky comments about PRS colored glasses, ignoring the fact I have not recommended a “PRS rifle” once in this thread, even indirectly recommending against such), or you simply believe you have a superior moral position over every shooter, living or dead, which uses a single stage trigger. Either way, I don’t see this as fruitful information for @MR WICK in his journey.
If you see fit to warn the OP you don’t find single stage triggers in any rifle to be safe, then fine. Make the recommendation far and wide to all shooters. That’s your bag to carry. I’ll not be adopting that philosophy, simply because you want to convolute my statement about the non-influence between trigger styles on accuracy into some strawman about safety in the PRS.
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Flatbush Harry
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I would recommend, for a first precision rifle, the Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 Creedmoor. They can be had for under $1,000 and with a proper scope and mount, will get the job done well for you. Bergara has been long known for excellent barrels and their B-14 HMR is what Remington should have made for an action. The barreled action comes in a very nice stock with adjustable cheek riser. Mine came with a Picatinny rail. I mounted a Vortex gen 2 Razor with MRAD reticle in Vortex Precision-Matched Rings. Mine shoots lights out as the pic below shows for 5 shots at 100 yards for sight-in with bipod and rear bag. Mine is very choosy as to ammo, but the Sierra ed. 6 manual maximum load (which I worked up to) for Varget and 142 gr SMKs works well.
Good luck and good shooting,
Harry
Good luck and good shooting,
Harry
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MR WICK
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There actuality is a class offered here for beginners that I'm going to sign up for. Thanks.
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Varminterror
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Chasing this rabbit will get you fed.
By the by - What target size are you holding with your A22 at 300yrds?
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MR WICK
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