1897 Union Pacific Railroad?

Dr Pew · Sep 11, 2021

Anyone able to tell me if this was a UPRR gun back in the day for sure? It’s a 1907 takedown with a 1906 barrel.

Jim Watson · Sep 11, 2021

Beats me.
Is it factory 20" Full or sawn off?

Dr Pew · Sep 11, 2021

Jim Watson said:
Beats me.
Is it factory 20" Full or sawn off?

Factory! Not sawn off

Tom D · Sep 11, 2021

Did you measure the barrel length? It looks much shorter than 20". The 20" barrel on my Model 1897 riot gun extends much further beyond the mag tube. With a "Full" choke I would suspect the barrel has been cut down.

Dr Pew · Sep 11, 2021

Tom D said:
Did you measure the barrel length? It looks much shorter than 20". The 20" barrel on my Model 1897 riot gun extends much further beyond the mag tube. With a "Full" choke I would suspect the barrel has been cut down.

What are the measuring points? I will check

Tom D · Sep 11, 2021

Measure the barrel length from the muzzle down the bore to the face of the closed bolt.

Dr Pew · Sep 11, 2021

Tom D said:
Did you measure the barrel length? It looks much shorter than 20". The 20" barrel on my Model 1897 riot gun extends much further beyond the mag tube. With a "Full" choke I would suspect the barrel has been cut down.

Barrel length is 18.5…

JT-AR-MG42 · Sep 12, 2021

Welcome to THR!
Without documentation or a factory letter, I do not believe anyone could say for sure.

If looking to purchase, several points.
It would concern me that the fonts are lacking serifs and periods after each letter which I would have expected to
see on a 1907 gun.
Winchester sent the gun out with matching numbered receivers/barrel groups, so that mis-match would also
lead me to question the undocumented background. Same for the barrel having been shortened to under riot length
outside of the factory.
Biggest concern for me would be (from the photo anyway) the sharpness of the lettering (same comments as above on the lettering itself) in the butt stock
while the grip area shows considerable handling wear.
Those inconsistencies would have me pass on the gun pending a supplied factory letter showing
shipment to the U.P.
To each his own, but I would not spend the money for a factory letter on this one.

Not looking to darken the day at all, just giving MHO.
An adage as old as gun collecting is to 'always buy the gun, not the story'

JT

Dr Pew · Sep 12, 2021

JT-AR-MG42 said:
Welcome to THR!
Without documentation or a factory letter, I do not believe anyone could say for sure.

If looking to purchase, several points.
It would concern me that the fonts are lacking serifs and periods after each letter which I would have expected to
see on a 1907 gun.
Winchester sent the gun out with matching numbered receivers/barrel groups, so that mis-match would also
lead me to question the undocumented background. Same for the barrel having been shortened to under riot length
outside of the factory.
Biggest concern for me would be (from the photo anyway) the sharpness of the lettering (same comments as above on the lettering itself) in the butt stock
while the grip area shows considerable handling wear.
Those inconsistencies would have me pass on the gun pending a supplied factory letter showing
shipment to the U.P.
To each his own, but I would not spend the money for a factory letter on this one.

Not looking to darken the day at all, just giving MHO.
An adage as old as gun collecting is to 'always buy the gun, not the story'

JT

Thanks! I got it from my uncle Years ago. He was a federal officer for U.P.R.R. Along with many other law enforcements, he died July 1. It’s all about the story for me. I already have it, just looking to see if there is a second chapter. just like everything, if the story is popular enough. It’s worth lots of money as/is Buffalo Bill, Billy The Kid or Clint Eastwood’s guns. They are worth more because of the story. Not that I care about the value as much as the story! But I will have to kindly disagree with you about the story not being important and having value! thank you for your comment!

Slamfire · Sep 12, 2021

Don't get mad about skepticism about stories, I have had old coots try to sell me a Japanese bayonet they claimed was a Confederate bayonet some ancestor carried in the Civil War.

However, documentation about your Uncle, such as pictures, ID, will really help any future value of that shotgun. While the stamping from gun factories is very good, this was obviously stamped by Ruger

this is a US property mark on a Win 52D.

probably etched at a warehouse with a vibrating pencil.

If the shotgun was property marked by the rail road, then who ever did it, was only concerned with getting numbers and letters on the gun, not leaving a perfect calligraphy for future generations to admire. Then it becomes difficult to determine just who did it, and when, without similar documented specimens to look at.

Still, interesting pictures, and maybe someone out there will see your stampings, and it will help them figure out what the letters on their gun mean. All Colt knew about this DS, was the date and the address to which it was shipped. They had no idea what the factory stamping meant. I had to get a map out, and look at the NJ shipping location, and puzzle what PIPP stood for. And there, on the map, was this interstate named "Palisades Interstate Parkway"!

Dr Pew · Sep 12, 2021

Slamfire said:
Don't get mad about skepticism about stories, I have had old coots try to sell me a Japanese bayonet they claimed was a Confederate bayonet some ancestor carried in the Civil War.

However, documentation about your Uncle, such as pictures, ID, will really help any future value of that shotgun. While the stamping from gun factories is very good, this was obviously stamped by Ruger

View attachment 1025124

View attachment 1025125

this is a US property mark on a Win 52D.

View attachment 1025126

probably etched at a warehouse with a vibrating pencil.

If the shotgun was property marked by the rail road, then who ever did it, was only concerned with getting numbers and letters on the gun, not leaving a perfect calligraphy for future generations to admire. Then it becomes difficult to determine just who did it, and when, without similar documented specimens to look at.

Still, interesting pictures, and maybe someone out there will see your stampings, and it will help them figure out what the letters on their gun mean. All Colt knew about this DS, was the date and the address to which it was shipped. They had no idea what the factory stamping meant. I had to get a map out, and look at the NJ shipping location, and puzzle what PIPP stood for. And there, on the map, was this interstate named "Palisades Interstate Parkway"!

View attachment 1025127

Not mad! Just saying I’m more about information to add meaning to it. Either way I will never let go of it and passed onto my to my kids. That old it’s possible to have a good story, what if it could be traced back to a old train robbery and the barrel got damaged during it? They would have just put another one on. I’m sure that is extremely unlikely but you never know!

dcloco · Sep 12, 2021

Maybe. They could have swapped parts around because THIS worked better with THAT.

I would send a letter stating the story and asking about BOTH serial numbers (pictures would help too!).

You never know.

Dr Pew · Sep 12, 2021

dcloco said:
Maybe. They could have swapped parts around because THIS worked better with THAT.

I would send a letter stating the story and asking about BOTH serial numbers (pictures would help too!).

You never know.

Thanks! I will do that and send the same pictures I posted here. At worst I’m out $150 because they find nothing right.

dcloco · Sep 12, 2021

Dr Pew said:
Thanks! I will do that and send the same pictures I posted here. At worst I’m out $150 because they find nothing right.

Please report back. Would REALLY add to the legacy of this firearm in your family.

Dr Pew · Sep 13, 2021

dcloco said:
Please report back. Would REALLY add to the legacy of this firearm in your family.

Will do. Thanks for the tips! Have a train museum here I’m going to try first. Then go from there.

Dr Pew · Sep 19, 2021

Museum got back to me. Said it’s a good possibility. The stamps look the same as ones they have on display. Not heard back from NRA yet. Cody firearms just wants me to pay them for what they have, role the dice like buying a car not knowing if it runs or has a engine at all ! Having fun looking for information. Fallowing more tips. Hopefully reporting back soon! thanks for all the help and comments on my quest!

Dr Pew · Sep 24, 2021

Heard back from the NRA and they said it looks authentic to them. Train museum in Yellowstone said it looked like a very nice find, A fine specimen. Guessing my next hope is if someone that had access to Winchester records could tell me yes or no on the purchaser. If the answer is yes then I save to buy a copy! I did find a guy, just not heard back yet!

gralewaj · Sep 28, 2021

very cool shotgun, great story.

Jim Watson · Sep 28, 2021

Sounds promising.
A friend bought a "Wells Fargo" shotgun suspiciously cheap. He had it checked out, and sure enough, bogus. Still not a bad price for a working shotgun.

1897 Union Pacific Railroad?

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