Help identify K38

I'm no expert, but something sounds fishy. The k38 was made from the late 40's to the late 50's, well the name changed to model 14 in the late 50's anyway. So either way, the serial number wouldn't put it prior to 57 or 58 when the model 14 nomenclature started. As far as the markings go, could be a number of things. From the description, sounds like a double stamp, maybe someone replaced the barrel with a factory second at some time? Or someone it trying to pass off a straight up fake....

I doubt its a knock-off or fake, but may be a frankengun. Either a '62 or '78 would most certainly not have factory diamond grips and certainly would be marked with the model number on the frame.

The number of screws on the sideplate would help date it too.

Pics?

Serial number starting with N would indicate indicate a 1962 or later N frame. These would be a model 25,27,28,29, 57,58,520 or 629, none of which is chambered in 38 special. What you refer to as an infinity symbol is the ampersand symbol. In the 50's, whatever font they used for the ampersand in S&W, is now often referred to as a lazy ampersand. Grips are not real useful for identifying the model or age because they are so easy to change.
To ID the gun, the number of screws can help. In the early to mid 50's, the side plate had 4 screws and there was one in front of the trigger guard. A pre model number should have all of these. The upper screw was eliminated right after they started stamping model numbers and the one in front of the trigger guard was eliminated in 1962. A 1978 gun will only have 3 screws. Another help to I'd would be, is the ejection rod shrouded? What is stamped on the other side of the barrel?
Here is the lazy ampersand

Here is a period ad





Period K38 with original grips.





Shoots good too

Thomasss said:

I'll have to go back and get pictures and look at the barrel markings again. If it is a fake or a frankanstein what is it's true value?

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Around here, a 95% condition, legit, correct and original finish K38 would fetch between $700 and $900 at a show or shop- add $100-150 with box, papers and tools.

For a rebarrelled, refinished, or modified, but otherwise mechanically sound 6" K38 or M14, I would still expect to see $500-700 on the sticker, but thats mainly because the shop knows most folks looking at it wont be able to spot the inconsistancies. For that matter, 90% of the gunshop employees in this area only know Glocks and ARs and couldn't find any problem areas on a revolver of any type.

Take pictures. An "N" serial number on a K frame does not compute.

An outdoorsman N frame in .38 spl.?

Where are you getting the serial number from? It should be on the butt. If you are looking inside the frame with the cylinder open the model number may be there, or an assembly number.

Howdy

The K-38 Target Masterpiece (sometimes known as the Pre-Model 14) was introduced in 1946. It was part of a family of three target revolvers, the K-22 Masterpiece, the K-32 Masterpiece, and the K-38 Masterpiece. In 1957 when S&W went to a model number system of identification, the K-38 Masterpiece became the Model 14.

This is a typical K-38, it shipped in 1950. The six inch barrel was standard. Notice there are three screws visible holding the side plate in place, there is one more hidden under the top corner of the grip and one more screw in front of the trigger guard, making this a Five Screw S&W revolver. Notice too the large windage adjustment screw on the rear sight, and the Patridge style front target sight. These are the grips that would be typical with this model, Magna style, diamond walnut grips with S&W monograms. This hammer is an early style short throw hammer, known as the Speed Hammer.








The following two photos show the barrel markings on this K-38. Note the Lazy Ampersand.








All K-38s were built on the medium size K frame and all had a K prefix. N prefix would be completely incorrect for a K frame revolver. The serial number of record will be on the bottom of the butt.



Just to be sure we are barking up the correct tree, this is a 38 Military and Police Target Model. This model preceded the K-38. Notice the tiny adjustment screw for the rear sight, the different style front sight, the different style hammer, and the different style Service Grips. Note too the mushroom shaped cap at the front of the ejector rod. This revolver shipped around 1917.

Thomasss said:

There is a much larger "K" perpendicular and in front of those numbers on the handle strap. I was always told the strap number was a production number and the yoke number was the serial number. True?

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No, that is just exactly bass awkward for Smiths of that vintage.
The serial number is the one on the butt. The K is part of the serial number even though there is a gap between it and the digits.
The number under the yoke is a "fitting number" of no consequence outside the factory. An N there is an inspector's or assembler's mark.
It is a K38 Masterpiece, predecessor to the Model 14, not an Outdoorsman.

If the gun does not have a hammer block, it has been removed by a target shooter who was trying to save a couple of ounces off the trigger pull.

It has a wide target hammer and I think target trigger, optimized for single action shooting.

The grips are not factory, looks like they are made to increase the grip angle for a Euro-style shooter.

Thomasss said:

Jim Watson, said "It is a K38 Masterpiece, predecessor to the Model 14, not an Outdoorsman."

How then do you account for the grooved tang?

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You mean the grip backstrap?

Pretty sure that was standard on the K38, the ad copy Slamfire posted above would tend to support that.

It is definitely a K-frame, not an N. The hammer block can be difficult to see without removing the sideplate, unlike a transfer bar on a Ruger or modern Smith, which is obvious. Its most likely down in there somewhere.

Looks pretty clean except for those kinda gross aftermarket stocks. $50-100 on Ebay will get you a decent set of replacement factory grips without diamonds. Add $50 for original diamond grips....

What are they asking for it?

Thomasss said:

$800

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Not completely outrageous, but a bit rich, imo.

Assuming the mechanical timing and lockup are good, I would point out that the grips are incorrect and offer them 7......

But I already have one, lol.

K77xxx would be a 1949 production. Back then, S&W also stamped the serial number on the cylinder face, barrel flat under ejection rod and on the yoke which is visible through a charge hole. It is definitely a pre model 14 with the old long action. Pictures are not good enough to tell if finish is original

Thomasss said:

$800

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The grips in my picture are original to the pistol, and I did not like them. So I installed Pachmayer clamshells. I have been told original K38 grips are very expensive so I have carefully stored mine. Everyone's hand is different and target shooters go through many grips, trying to find the one that fits their hand like a glove. So, don't fret about the grips. I would take a cleaning rod, with bristle brush, and push it down the barrel and cylinder chambers, and make sure that that there is no rust or pits.

And check the timing of the cylinder. Slowly cock the hammer and observe that the cylinder locks up before, or just at, full cock.

These pistols have unusually smooth actions, someone said they were "double fitted". Once before heat treat, and once afterwards. In their day, the K38 was a desired target pistol, so they were made with an emphasis of precision and smooth firing.

At $800, I can't afford another K38, prices keep on getting more and more ridiculous!

Oh, to be sure, you may wind up going with different grips for comfort, but its a legit bargaining point and does effect collector value.

I'd get pictures up on the SW board.
You might be surprised on those grips

Jim Watson said:

I'd get pictures up on the SW board.
You might be surprised on those grips

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They may be worth $$, but looking at those huge gaps on the backstrap in the OP's pictures, they clearly dont fit that gun at all.

Howdy Again

You have been given some bad information. Despite what the salesman said, revolver barrel lengths, all revolvers, all brands, are measured from the front of the cylinder to the muzzle, not from the front of the frame to the muzzle. I just measured the barrel on the K-38 pictured above and it is 5 15/16" long. That is consistent with a 6" barrel. They sometimes varied a little bit in length.

The Serial Number of almost all modern S&W revolvers is on the butt, not the frame inside the cut for the cylinder yoke. This particular K-38 had a lanyard ring at the bottom at one time, which is no longer there. I have blanked out the last two digits of the SN. Notice the K is way over to the left, so it would not be obliterated by the hole for the lanyard ring. The SN on a revolver of this age will also show up on the rear face of the cylinder, the flat under the barrel, and the underside of the extractor star. The SN of record is the one on the bottom of the butt, if the SNs in the other locations match up that means the revolver left the factory with those parts and they have not been replaced. This SN is K 761XX, and it left the factory in 1950.






The range for K prefix Serial Numbers for 1948 was K18732-K73121. The range for K Prefix Serial Numbers for 1949 was K73122-K84149. Smith and Wesson revolvers did not always ship in Serial Number order, that is why Roy Jinks, the official Smith and Wesson historian told me my K-38 shipped in 1950.



K frame target revolvers of this era had six grooves on the backstrap. There are also six grooves on the front strap. Later production Model 14s had ten grooves on the backstrap and front strap.






I suspect you are confused about the difference between a Hammer Block and a Transfer Bar. The thin slanted piece in this photo is a Hammer Block. This style of Hammer Block has been standard in all S&W revolvers since 1944. There were two earlier styles of Hammer Blocks, but I will bet you a donut the K-38 in question still has its hammer block inside. They were sometimes removed by foolish gunsmiths, but if you cock the hammer very slowly in good light you should see the hammer block retracting down into the frame as the hammer is cocked. Also, notice in this photo the tiny piece protruding into the space behind the trigger. That is a trigger stop. K frame target revolvers had these installed to limit the motion of the trigger after the hammer dropped.





This is a Transfer Bar in a Ruger Vaquero. It transfers the blow of the hammer to the frame mounted firing pin. S&W has never used Transfer Bars.





Judging from your photo the K-38 in question has a target hammer with an extra long hammer spur, and a target trigger, which is wider at the base than where it pokes through the frame. Difficult to see on your fuzzy photo, but that is what it appears to me.

You do not have a 'short stroke' hammer and trigger, there is no such thing in a S&W revolver. The hammer is a 'short throw' hammer. The distance to cock the hammer on any double action revolver is longer than the distance the hammer will fall when the trigger is pulled double action. That is just part of the design. On really old S&W revolvers, the full cock position of the hammer was back considerably further than the point at which the hammer would fall when the trigger was pulled double action. But it became obvious that the hammer spring was being compressed enough to fire a cartridge from the double action release point and there was no need to cock the hammer further for single action shooting. So a new style hammer was designed that did not require the hammer to be pulled back as far as the earlier designs. These were called the 'short throw' hammers because they did not have as much 'throw' as the earlier designs.

In this photo, the revolver at the top has a modern short throw hammer, the revolver at the bottom has the older style hammer. Both hammers are cocked for single action shooting. Notice the relative angles of the two hammers.






This K-22 Masterpiece has a short throw hammer with a long hammer spur.






This Model 17-3 has a short throw hammer with a standard hammer spur. Notice the trigger stop behind the trigger.






Sorry, I don't recall what I paid for the K-38 I have been posting.

Given the way prices are going these days, $800 is probably not unreasonable for a K-38 in good shape. $500 would be a real deal.

Here is my 1949 pre model 14. Its the new short action just like the one you posted. Mine has the target hammer and standard trigger. The one you posted has a short action target hammer, it's not a pre war long action as someone posted.

Great accurate gun.

Here is the k38 target masterpiece and a k22:
The K22 top has a speed hammer.

That is NOT a "pre model 14."
I can't read the barrel stamp or see the top strap or the head stamp on the ammo so I don't know if it is a .357 Magnum or an Outdoorsman.
The rear gauge looks close, so I will guess .357 Magnum. (I prefer to call them by name, nobody at SW in 1949 was thinking "We are going to assign model numbers in eight years, so this is a "pre model 27"."