What's the difference between a caliber and a cartridge?
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Hugger-4641
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Caliber is bullet diameter or class of dia. Cartridge is the specific combination of case and bullet.
For instance: 30-30, 30-06, 308 are all different examples of 30 calibre cartridges.
For instance: 30-30, 30-06, 308 are all different examples of 30 calibre cartridges.
Archie
Member
The above answers are correct. Perhaps I can be a bit more concise and specific, and cover some ambiguous meanings.
The two words are commonly used interchangeably.
"Caliber" is properly the diameter of the bullet, in hundredths of an inch. In fact, caliber means (in one sense) a specific measurement in decimal fractions of an inch (which is a standardization in the Imperial measurement system).
Or sometimes the diameter of the bore of the arm. To further add to the confusion, the United States manufacturers tend to refer to groove diameter as the proper measurement while Great Britain manufacturers (there is not governmental decree of which I am aware to mandate either) measure land diameter. Which is why a "6.5mm" rifle is '.256 inch' in Great Britain and '.264 inch' in the U. S.
"Caliber" is also used commonly to designate the size and shape of the entire 'package' of a unit of ammunition. When asked "What caliber are you shooting?" One commonly answers ".270 Whiffinpoof" or such, usually without pronouncing the decimal point.
"Cartridge" is properly the entirety of a loaded unit of ammunition, ready to be inserted and used in a firearm. As you remarked, there are many "30 caliber' rifles; they all have the same bore diameter. In the U. S. they all share the groove diameter of .308 inches, but not in all the world; notice the bore diameter of the Russian 7.62x54Rmm cartridge. In 'Mother Russia' this round is considered a "three line" (meaning .30 caliber in the Russian language of 1891) but by our standards the bullet and bore diameter is .310" rather than .308".
On a similar note, the term 'round' has an equally ambiguous meaning. The late Jeff Cooper wrote to the effect of a 'round' being ammunition sufficient for all 'guns' to be fired once. This was a military phrase and concept. In the dictionary, a 'round' is sufficient material for one shot. In the case of a muzzle loader, an amount of powder, one projectile (or a load of shot), wadding as needed, a percussion cap and I'm not sure about flint if so required. The current concept is a single unit of ammunition, ready to be loaded and fired.
One can also speak of a round in the sense of a cartridge; the .30-06 round.
Much like 'magazine' and 'clip' are (wrongly and) interchangeably used, the English language is at the mercy of the sloppiest speaker. One is encouraged to listen to the context of the statement and use of any single word.
The two words are commonly used interchangeably.
"Caliber" is properly the diameter of the bullet, in hundredths of an inch. In fact, caliber means (in one sense) a specific measurement in decimal fractions of an inch (which is a standardization in the Imperial measurement system).
Or sometimes the diameter of the bore of the arm. To further add to the confusion, the United States manufacturers tend to refer to groove diameter as the proper measurement while Great Britain manufacturers (there is not governmental decree of which I am aware to mandate either) measure land diameter. Which is why a "6.5mm" rifle is '.256 inch' in Great Britain and '.264 inch' in the U. S.
"Caliber" is also used commonly to designate the size and shape of the entire 'package' of a unit of ammunition. When asked "What caliber are you shooting?" One commonly answers ".270 Whiffinpoof" or such, usually without pronouncing the decimal point.
"Cartridge" is properly the entirety of a loaded unit of ammunition, ready to be inserted and used in a firearm. As you remarked, there are many "30 caliber' rifles; they all have the same bore diameter. In the U. S. they all share the groove diameter of .308 inches, but not in all the world; notice the bore diameter of the Russian 7.62x54Rmm cartridge. In 'Mother Russia' this round is considered a "three line" (meaning .30 caliber in the Russian language of 1891) but by our standards the bullet and bore diameter is .310" rather than .308".
On a similar note, the term 'round' has an equally ambiguous meaning. The late Jeff Cooper wrote to the effect of a 'round' being ammunition sufficient for all 'guns' to be fired once. This was a military phrase and concept. In the dictionary, a 'round' is sufficient material for one shot. In the case of a muzzle loader, an amount of powder, one projectile (or a load of shot), wadding as needed, a percussion cap and I'm not sure about flint if so required. The current concept is a single unit of ammunition, ready to be loaded and fired.
One can also speak of a round in the sense of a cartridge; the .30-06 round.
Much like 'magazine' and 'clip' are (wrongly and) interchangeably used, the English language is at the mercy of the sloppiest speaker. One is encouraged to listen to the context of the statement and use of any single word.
Hugger-4641
Member
I think you covered "specific", not sure I can agree that you achieved "concise:" Lol
Poper
Member
A most excellent, concise and plain explanation / definition!
Jim Watson
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All that explication, then you start out right and finish up wrong.
Archie
Member
Ah!
Wiki cites the bore diameter as .312". Cannot remember where I read it, Lyman #50 manual has it (in the schematic) as .3105". You will agree it is not .308" or .3085" I trust? Your vote is for ?
Or did I write something else completely as wrong?
Reloadron
Contributing Member
What's the difference between a caliber and a cartridge?
Uh, the spelling?
The following are based on the SAAMI Glossary of Terms:
CALIBER
1. A term used to designate the specific cartridge(s) for which a firearm is chambered. 2. Firearms: The approximate diameter of the circle formed by the tops of the lands of a rifled barrel, often expressed in hundredths of an inch (“.38 Caliber”) or millimeters (“7mm Caliber). 3. Ammunition: A numerical term included in a cartridge name to indicate a rough approximation of the bullet diameter.
CARTRIDGE
A single round of ammunition consisting of the case, primer and propellant with or without one or more projectiles. Also applies to a shotshell.
What I like about using the SAAMI glossary is they set the industry standard as to definitions. This allows everyone to be on the same channel and know that definitions of terms are subject to change. Cartridge shows up in several ways but the single word is defined above.
Ron
Uh, the spelling?
The following are based on the SAAMI Glossary of Terms:
CALIBER
1. A term used to designate the specific cartridge(s) for which a firearm is chambered. 2. Firearms: The approximate diameter of the circle formed by the tops of the lands of a rifled barrel, often expressed in hundredths of an inch (“.38 Caliber”) or millimeters (“7mm Caliber). 3. Ammunition: A numerical term included in a cartridge name to indicate a rough approximation of the bullet diameter.
CARTRIDGE
A single round of ammunition consisting of the case, primer and propellant with or without one or more projectiles. Also applies to a shotshell.
What I like about using the SAAMI glossary is they set the industry standard as to definitions. This allows everyone to be on the same channel and know that definitions of terms are subject to change. Cartridge shows up in several ways but the single word is defined above.
Ron
Bwana John
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Caliber can also be the length of the barrel divided by the bore diameter.
ie. 5" 50 caliber... A Navel gun with a 5" diameter bore and a 250" (20 ft, 10 in) long barrel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-inch/50-caliber_gun
It becomes useful when there are guns of the same bore diameter, but use different sized cartridges. It is easier to see/measure the barrel length than the chamber dimension when selecting ammo for it.
ie. 5" 50 caliber... A Navel gun with a 5" diameter bore and a 250" (20 ft, 10 in) long barrel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-inch/50-caliber_gun
It becomes useful when there are guns of the same bore diameter, but use different sized cartridges. It is easier to see/measure the barrel length than the chamber dimension when selecting ammo for it.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
I heard this one half a century ago, can't verify it for a "round" of ammunition:
"Round" is a method of describing a repetitive action, as in a "round' of golf' or a "round" of drinks.
Now consider the old fashioned British army tactic of advancing with muzzle loading arms.
The first rank of advancing soldiers would level (not "aim") and fire, then kneel to allow the second rank of soldiers to advance. In the meantime they would do the muzzleloading thing while the third rank would advance, level, and fire. Rinse and repeat.
Thus this repetitive action became a "round" of firing, and by extension the operations got connected together when fixed ammunitioin evolved... thus, a "round" of ammunition, but all in one package.
Now I have never been able to verify that, but despite its complexity, seems to be a viable explanation, considering how strangely so many words in the language have evolved.
I offer that theory as related to me by an old-time shooter many moons (600 of them) ago.
Etymologists may offer other explanations, which I would welcome.
Terry, 230RN
(No jokes about entemologists, please.)
"Round" is a method of describing a repetitive action, as in a "round' of golf' or a "round" of drinks.
Now consider the old fashioned British army tactic of advancing with muzzle loading arms.
The first rank of advancing soldiers would level (not "aim") and fire, then kneel to allow the second rank of soldiers to advance. In the meantime they would do the muzzleloading thing while the third rank would advance, level, and fire. Rinse and repeat.
Thus this repetitive action became a "round" of firing, and by extension the operations got connected together when fixed ammunitioin evolved... thus, a "round" of ammunition, but all in one package.
Now I have never been able to verify that, but despite its complexity, seems to be a viable explanation, considering how strangely so many words in the language have evolved.
I offer that theory as related to me by an old-time shooter many moons (600 of them) ago.
Etymologists may offer other explanations, which I would welcome.
Terry, 230RN
(No jokes about entemologists, please.)
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NIGHTLORD40K
Member
I would only add this is sometimes abbreviated with an "L." For example 75/L70 would be a 75mm gun with barrel 70 times longer than the bore diameter of 75mm.
Jim Watson
Member
The latter. The BORE of a .30 caliber is a nominal .300". When you start talking about bullet diameter and the depth of the rifling, that comes out as GROOVE diameter, whether .308" here or .312" abroad. Which you said to start with but then got away from.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Just to stir up the issue, caliber was also designated as "lines," which was approximately 0.10 inches. Supposedly this was a printer's measurement for a line of print. Thus the 7,62 Mosin-Nagant was a "3-line rifle."
"Of course," Terry said with an evil grin, "that would make a 16 inch naval rifle a '160-line rifle.' I don't know how the driving bands on the projectile affect this reckoning."
Terry, 230RN
"Of course," Terry said with an evil grin, "that would make a 16 inch naval rifle a '160-line rifle.' I don't know how the driving bands on the projectile affect this reckoning."
Terry, 230RN
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Archie
Member
Ah! I think it was that bullets (jacketed, anyway) are officially sized at .308". In fact, I recall from my younger days that "30 caliber" was .308 inch land to land and .3085 inch groove to groove. But that always seems a tiny bit for rifling engagement.
Anyway, so noted.
In my defense, the error really doesn't affect much of what I said.
Archie
Member
Look at my comment again. Jeff Cooper's quoted statement is very much the same thing. E. g., in an artillery platoon (in the Marine Corps, in my time, three cannon) if the Commander gave the order, "Fire another round", each of the three cannon would fire ONE round.
I think it would be easier and make more sense to order a unit of soldiers armed with muzzle loaders to fire 'a round' than to do so with troops armed semi or fully automatic weapons.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Let me add to the confusion.
In artillery, "caliber" is the ratio between bore diameter and bore length, expressed as Caliber (Navy) or Length (Army).
USS Arizona had 5" bore guns in 5"/51 Caliber (255" barrel) and 5"/25 Caliber (125" barrel) for anti-ship and anti-aircraft secondary armament.
In US Army terms those would be 127mm L/51 and 127mm L/25.
In artillery, "caliber" is the ratio between bore diameter and bore length, expressed as Caliber (Navy) or Length (Army).
USS Arizona had 5" bore guns in 5"/51 Caliber (255" barrel) and 5"/25 Caliber (125" barrel) for anti-ship and anti-aircraft secondary armament.
In US Army terms those would be 127mm L/51 and 127mm L/25.
As far as .30 goes, it's also 7.62 in metric, and yet the bore diameter for US and Soviet are different. This goes to an old story about US and Russian ammo be "interchangeable" and that "fact" was used to save quite a few US soldiers who simply cross loaded ammo from dead soldiers to win a firefight.
Ah, no. We heard a lot of BS back in the day, and that wasn't the silliest.
"Caliber" isn't very specific when it comes down to it, it's a nominal term for a bullet size, and there are significant differences. Whats worse is that manufacturers will market functionally identical cartridges with different names, and yet there are similary named cartridges which are highly incompatible. If it's a ".30" its dangerous to assume that bullet can be used in any .30 barrel with no ill affects.
Its almost like the industry wants things to be a bit confusing.
Ah, no. We heard a lot of BS back in the day, and that wasn't the silliest.
"Caliber" isn't very specific when it comes down to it, it's a nominal term for a bullet size, and there are significant differences. Whats worse is that manufacturers will market functionally identical cartridges with different names, and yet there are similary named cartridges which are highly incompatible. If it's a ".30" its dangerous to assume that bullet can be used in any .30 barrel with no ill affects.
Its almost like the industry wants things to be a bit confusing.
wiscoaster
Member
Hah, hah ... you beat me to it.
Jim Watson
Member
If it had been a casual reference, I would have passed over it, but since you put up a full page post to instruct us, I expected it to be correct in every detail.
Wasn't there a Vietnam myth that captured 5.56 could be shot in an AK?
There were corresponding legends that the Makarov was intended to be able to use .380 in a pinch. Which it will but where was it to come from in a conflict that made that a real consideration?
We were told that the Soviet standard mortar was 82mm and could use our 81mm shells, but we could not use theirs.
I know there was a moderator on TFL who maintained that the Type 99 Arisaka 7.7mm was designed to accept .30-06 for the purpose of using captured US ammunition.
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Always like this discussion. Here's my current crop of .284 caliber cartridges.
toivo
Member
I've always thought that "caliber" is a measurement and "cartridge" is an object. Am I wrong?
edwardware
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Caliber in the (nominal) diameter of the bullet, or the barrel.
Cartridge is both: 1) a reference to a standard (like SAAMI) that defines at least dimensions and operating pressures of the cartridge, and 2) a noun denoting a complete unit of fixed ammunition (bullet, case, powder, primer).
Cartridge is both: 1) a reference to a standard (like SAAMI) that defines at least dimensions and operating pressures of the cartridge, and 2) a noun denoting a complete unit of fixed ammunition (bullet, case, powder, primer).
mcb
Member
Not common in small arms but cannons, tank guns, and artillery it is fairly common to measure barrel lengths in calibers. Ie the M1A1 Abrams M256 main-gun is 44 calibers longs (L/44). Since it a 120mm bore diameter that makes the barrel 5.28m (17.3 ft), the German Leopard 2 uses the same gun but with a longer L/55 barrel.
Archie
Member
You are correct about 'not very specific' although I'd say it was 'not very exact', pedantic sort that I am. But you are correct. What seems to have happened is a good deal of misconception and perhaps advertising hoopla was added to the bare facts.
Archie
Member
Without all the 'cultural' colorings, that is exactly right. You are right.
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