One of the most ignored factors of the 40SW in caliber debates

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Do you mean just one chest hit? From the front? I wouldn't have trouble believing that people occasionally survive that. Both lungs perforated by two shots, or a shot from the side with a deep penetrating round would probably prove fatal in most cases, that's my guess. Maybe even with pointy 9mm FMJ.
I’ve been on scene where people have taken numerous torso shots to the chest and abdomen from centerfire handguns and survived on several occasions, lung shots and all. I personally escorted a murder witness who took a 12 gauge slug straight through the guts from front-porch-range and lived to testify against the guys who killed his buddy and tried to kill him (He was pretty much disemboweled, but lived for years afterwards).

A good friend of mine took two .357 Mag JHP rounds through the side/back (under the side panel of his vest) that punctured a kidney and all sorts of intestine (one bullet bounced off his lumbar spine without damaging the cord). Bob said it felt like someone stuck an air hose in his guts at 150 psi… but he was still able to move and get out of the way before he fell as his partners fired back.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-04-21-me-773-story.html?_amp=true

After 30 years and counting responding to and reading reports from shooting scenes; I can state from experience that some people can be surprisingly tough as often as others can be surprisingly soft. Counting on any handgun to be the right-now, end all fight stopper isn’t always a winning decision.

May we never have to test these theories out ourselves.

Stay safe.
 
Let's just ask Paul Harrell to try this on the meat target????...... I can only guess the results would be about the same anyways, on the highly technical meat target... The less than 1/4" meplat flat on the .40 s&w would have to somehow cause greater blood loss quicker and equate to quicker incapacitation? No way in h.e. double hockey sticks to ever prove this other than to speculate.
Lots of .40 S&W and .45 hollow points fail to expand, and that's a bigger problem.
All this aside, I'd carry a .40 S&W any day of the week anywhere, I really really like the round.
I personally use 9mm for SD for a number of different reasons, and the reason is not because I have anything against the .40 or a .45
 
I’ve been on scene where people have taken numerous torso shots to the chest and abdomen from centerfire handguns and survived on several occasions, lung shots and all. I personally escorted a murder witness who took a 12 gauge slug straight through the guts from front-porch-range and lived to testify against the guys who killed his buddy and tried to kill him (He was pretty much disemboweled, but lived for years afterwards).

A good friend of mine took two .357 Mag JHP rounds through the side/back (under the side panel of his vest) that punctured a kidney and all sorts of intestine (one bullet bounced off his lumbar spine without damaging the cord). Bob said it felt like someone stuck an air hose in his guts at 150 psi… but he was still able to move and get out of the way before he fell as his partners fired back.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-04-21-me-773-story.html?_amp=true

After 30 years and counting responding to and reading reports from shooting scenes; I can state from experience that some people can be surprisingly tough as often as others can be surprisingly soft. Counting on any handgun to be the right-now, end all fight stopper isn’t always a winning decision.

May we never have to test these theories out ourselves.

Stay safe.
I don't think you're making anything up, but I've seen numerous deer die very quickly from being double lunged just once by common service/defensive rounds, so that's where my opinion comes from. Never seen a person shot and hope I never have to.
 
Do you mean just one chest hit? From the front? I wouldn't have trouble believing that peoplehad occasionally survive that. Both lungs perforated by two shots, or a shot from the side with a deep penetrating round would probably prove fatal in most cases, that's my guess. Maybe even with pointy 9mm FMJ.

One or multiple hits in the torso. My youngest, who had gone through pre-med and had some medical training, revived a man with eight torso hits but unfortunatley that vicitm of a heineous crime died in the ambulance.
A few weeks ago a female had been brought into the E.R. with a small calibre gun shot wound to the abdomen and my son had told the cops to grab a coffee and wait until the shooting victim, who was responsive , would come out of surgery for interrogation. She did not make it. The .22 had perforated the spleen and a second .22 bullet that went through the exact same entrance wound was lodged in the body.
One thing that my son, the doctor, shared with me, is that he no longer predicts survivability of gun shot wounds. A lot depends on the will of the victim to survive and his strength, not so much calibre, bullet design, or just shot placement.

A fighter, that has been hit and covered with punches but braved it before, will react very different to blows than somebody who never has been hit and the human will to survive is hard to process scientifically.
 
One or multiple hits in the torso. My youngest, who had gone through pre-med and had some medical training, revived a man with eight torso hits but unfortunatley that vicitm of a heineous crime died in the ambulance.
A few weeks ago a female had been brought into the E.R. with a small calibre gun shot wound to the abdomen and my son had told the cops to grab a coffee and wait until the shooting victim, who was responsive , would come out of surgery for interrogation. She did not make it. The .22 had perforated the spleen and a second .22 bullet that went through the exact same entrance wound was lodged in the body.
One thing that my son, the doctor, shared with me, is that he no longer predicts survivability of gun shot wounds. A lot depends on the will of the victim to survive and his strength, not so much calibre, bullet design, or just shot placement.

A fighter, that has been hit and covered with punches but braved it before, will react very different to blows than somebody who never has been hit and the human will to survive is hard to process scientifically.
I think some of it has to do with the victim's will to live. I sincerely believe that is a factor.
 
Okay then I don't want them to die, I want them to survive and kill me.
Jeez man. The point of a self defense shooting is to stop the threat. You shoot center mass (if possible) until the threat stops being a threat. And as soon as the scene is safe you call for a an ambulance and the police.

You shoot someone, you better try and get someone there fast to keep that person alive, scum bag or not. And who want's killing someone on their conscience?
 
Jeez man. The point of a self defense shooting is to stop the threat. You shoot center mass (if possible) until the threat stops being a threat. And as soon as the scene is safe you call for a an ambulance and the police.

You shoot someone, you better try and get someone there fast to keep that person alive, scum bag or not. And who want's killing someone on their conscience?
How do you "stop" someone? What are you actually doing? Merely displaying a pistol will end many confrontations. If you have to fire it, what exactly do you want that to accomplish?
 
How do you "stop" someone? What are you actually doing? Merely displaying a pistol will end many confrontations. If you have to fire it, what exactly do you want that to accomplish?
If drawing a gun stops the threat, your done. Call the cops. Give a description. Done.

If you have to fire, hit your target as many times as needed to stop them from killing or causing you great bodily injury, depending on legalities in your state.

You’re talking about wanting your attacker to die of blood loss…. Wanting to kill someone for any reason should never even enter your mind. If they’re still a treat you may HAVE to kill someone, but it isn’t the goal.
 
If drawing a gun stops the threat, your done. Call the cops. Give a description. Done.

If you have to fire, hit your target as many times as needed to stop them from killing or causing you great bodily injury, depending on legalities in your state.

You’re talking about wanting your attacker to die of blood loss…. Wanting to kill someone for any reason should never even enter your mind. If they’re still a treat you may HAVE to kill someone, but it isn’t the goal.
Death from blood loss would be the only realistic mechanism of "stopping" an armed attacker who has blocked my escape. Are you hoping the muzzle blast scares them away?

It might.
 
Death from blood loss would be the only realistic mechanism of "stopping" an armed attacker who has blocked my escape.
That isn't the point at all. It's a possible outcome if you have a determined attacker on your hands that tries to block your escape, not the goal of a defensive shooting. Posting that you hope for your attacker to bleed out is a bad idea, and gives a bad impression of those of us that carry.

I can see this isn't going to go anywhere productive, and it's off topic anyway. Take care.
 
Back to the point on topic, there's a possibility the flatter meplat stops quicker in the target due to greater frontal resistance than the possible round nose full metal jackets. That could mean 2 things, quicker energy transfer and less chance of over penetration..... but again, I have no evidence to back this up whatsoever. And I sure hope I have access to ammunition designed for self defense if and ever I need to use a firearm for self defense.
...Who knows, an attorney and jury could have a hay day because you used ammunition labeled for "target" practice. Or used a bullet design named after a 1980s Vietnam movie.
 
I don't think you're making anything up, but I've seen numerous deer die very quickly from being double lunged just once by common service/defensive rounds, so that's where my opinion comes from. Never seen a person shot and hope I never have to.
No, I’m not. 30 years in so cal law enforcement will expose you to stuff you can’t imagine. ;)

Stay safe.
 
Death from blood loss would be the only realistic mechanism of "stopping" an armed attacker who has blocked my escape. Are you hoping the muzzle blast scares them away?
NO! Death is not a lawful objective, and blood loss is not an effective wounding mechanism for SD/
 
NO! Death is not a lawful objective, and blood loss is not an effective wounding mechanism for SD/
Fine, "incapacitation" then.

If blood loss were not a factor I would just carry a 22 and focus rapid fire at the head and neck. The only reason why I carry anything larger than 22 is because I expect a defensive pistol to bleed an opponent out or cause catastrophic respiratory failure if I have to stay behind cover or concealment for an extended period of time, or need to escape without being followed. Otherwise I wouldn't subject myself to the blast and recoil.
 
Reading this just makes me wonder why my my thread of 9 vs 40 but only can find fmj bullets gets removed immediately.
With the pandemic scarcity I think people are starting to figure out why the 9mm isn't as great as it's been made out to be over the past 15 years or so. With hollow points it's okay but HPs are $2/shot now and are not in stock anywhere. All the 9mm you can actually buy now consists of pointy, smooth ogive little things that zip through tissue way too easily and can scarcely put down a rabbit. We're starting to understand why experienced people disliked the round for 100 years.
 
he tested the Remington Green box 9mm HP loads and they expanded as well and rounds costing 3-4 times as much.
For grins, I did some expansion tests a while back. Left to right; Speer Gold Dot, Winchester PDX-1 & Remington Green Box.
The green box stuff expanded OK but I'll pay a little more for the better bloom on the other two.

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For grins, I did some expansion tests a while back. Left to right; Speer Gold Dot, Winchester PDX-1 & Remington Green Box.
The green box stuff expanded OK but I'll pay a little more for the better bloom on the other two.

View attachment 1030076

You'll pay more for the better bloom? Why's that? Something to do with a bigger hole and a bigger wound, or are they just prettier? ;)
 
Agreed, the more uniform petals usually mean a more uniform expansion more consistently. Older school traditional non bonded and "notched" hollow points like Fed Hi-Shok, Hornady XTP, or WIN Silvertip to name a few, while are very fine hollow points, they tend to have a little more erratic results through both barrier penetration (which is more relevant for LE) and straight up expansion in gel than do the more modern bullet designs like The Gold Dot, etc. Etc. Jacket separation was a problem with 9mm, where an already light bullet becomes even lighter and thus terminal problems became a slight issue....according to some "highly scientific testing" (or just a stab in the dark by a few good men)
These bullet advancements of the last 15 or so years have made the 9mm sway back into favor.....for LE and FBI, etc. Etc. And the rest of people tend to follow suit....
I still carry HI shok from a batch of 9BPLE I purchased a long long time ago. I have every confidence they will do the job I need them to.
They're not "insufficient" for my self defense purposes, they never have been and I'd hate to ever see a day when they arent.
 
Agreed, the more uniform petals usually mean a more uniform expansion more consistently. Older school traditional non bonded and "notched" hollow points like Fed Hi-Shok, Hornady XTP, or WIN Silvertip to name a few, while are very fine hollow points, they tend to have a little more erratic results through both barrier penetration (which is more relevant for LE) and straight up expansion in gel than do the more modern bullet designs like The Gold Dot, etc. Etc. Jacket separation was a problem with 9mm, where an already light bullet becomes even lighter and thus terminal problems became a slight issue....according to some "highly scientific testing" (or just a stab in the dark by a few good men)
These bullet advancements of the last 15 or so years have made the 9mm sway back into favor.....for LE and FBI, etc. Etc. And the rest of people tend to follow suit....
I still carry HI shok from a batch of 9BPLE I purchased a long long time ago. I have every confidence they will do the job I need them to.
They're not "insufficient" for my self defense purposes, they never have been and I'd hate to ever see a day when they arent.
I still tend to prefer the XTPs over anything else, just because they seem to penetrate best, and I never carry any short barreled guns. They've been highly regarded by handgun hunters for years.
 
The pdx1 is most likely a better barrier penetrator too I'd imagine
Both PDX and Gold Dot penetrated three gallon jugs of water, but the Gold Dot poked a hole in the fourth, knocked it over, and sent the first flying over all of them.
 
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