Which PCC?

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Caution is warranted here.....I have the "multimag" version of the Sub2k, and swapped out the mag release to be able to pair it with my well stocked supply of S&W 5900 series mags and pistols, and liked it a lot. A couple 33 rd giggle sticks and we were rolling......then along comes the PC Carbine, and I found one new/used, guy needing the money more than the gun, so I got it at a substantial discount, thinking it would pair nicely with my Ruger SR9c, and it does.....so then along comes the PC Charger.....and I HAD to have one, and then the folding brace, and a red dot, and now an Obsidian 9 suppressor in jail.... Point being here that folding or breakdown carbines are a gateway drug.......
 
I was in this debate several years ago. The CZ Scorpion carbine was what I really wanted but I couldn't justify the price for what was just going to be a range toy for me. Next on the list was the Kel-tec, I liked that it could fit many of the mags I have, but it just didn't click with me. At the time I only had one AR and wasn't that into the platform. The Beretta looked like a Hi Point with lipstick. The Ruger was just "meh" to me, but it might be the best option for OP since it somewhat closely resembles the ergo's of the M1 carbine. Of all things I ended up with a Hi Point, mostly because it was $200 and based on experience I knew their handguns were reliable. I liked it enough that I ended up dropping another $250 on the HTA bullpup kit and it's an absolute hoot now to shoot.

If I had to do it again today I'd end up in the same place again. I do like AR's now and have built several, but honestly if I want to shoot something cheaper than .223 out of it I'd rather just slap my dedicated .22 upper on and use that. But if I was going to use this for HD instead of plinking, I'd probably drop the money for the CZ.
 
I own a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 and a POF-5 (license-built MP-5), have owned a PSA AR-9, and have a good bit of experience with a Ruger PCC.

Of all of those, my favorite to shoot, and the one I reach for the most is the CZ Scorpion. It’s not as smooth as the roller-locked POF-5, but it’s still a joy to shoot, extremely robust and reliable, and mags and accessories are cheap. It’s also an incredibly good suppressor host.

The Ruger PCC is a nice gun, but a bit heavy and clunky for what it is, and a bit too compromised in my opinion by trying to match the form factor of a 10/22 Takedown.

The AR-9 took a trip back to the manufacturer and tweaking to be reliable, and I could never warm up to it. It also doesn’t help that a 9mm blowback AR has more recoil than a good gas-operated 5.56mm AR-15. Again - just too compromised versus the purpose-built Scorpion. I agree with Bassjam above, if the goal is an AR that is lighter-recoiling and cheaper to shoot than 5.56, you can’t beat a good .22lr dedicated upper. I have one from CMMG and it’s a blast - reliable, fun, and very accurate.
 
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JohnB-40 said:
I bought a Ruger 9mm PCC a year ago. Reliable and versatile,the only small complaint is it's bit heavy.
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The weird part is, the Ruger PCC is quite lightweight for what it is, considering it has a robust takedown mechanism and a heavy bolt. I weighted my generic AR9 and the Ruger. AR9 comes in at 6 lb 4 oz, Ruger at 6 lb 10 oz. I think what really kills Ruger is the heavy-profile barrel. It is fluted fortunately, but it's not as light as a thin 9mm barrel. It makes the Ruger heavy in front, where it feels worse.
 
Rock185 said:
I have one of the old Marlin Camp9 carbines, but if I were looking today I'd look seriously at the Ruger PCC. I've handled the Ruger, and it does seem heavier than my Marlin, but very solid with some desirable features. With all the AR types and others available now days, certainly no shortage of PCC options.
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Thats me. I have one of the Camp Carbines in 9mm and see no reason to get another 9mm. I do like my Marlin 357 lever action. Thats my favorite of all my guns.
 
I run a Foxtrotmike comlete 16 inch upper on a PSA multi caliber AR using a Stern defense magazine block. I am happy with AR pattern rifles, any lower in my safe can run any upper. If you have other ARs it’s one direction I can recommend. Maximum parts interchangeability is one layer of my spare parts contingency plan for times when supplies of certain things can fluctuate quickly and drastically.
 

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Ironhand54 said:
Sub-2000
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They go bang reliably, it isn't some sort of converted from hybrid, you have magazines for it, there are now accessories available.

sub0.jpg
My old metal receiver Sub 9 fits in a small laptop case with loaded mags very handily and is still running strong after decades.

The Ruger is a good choice (except the mag problem), but for the same price range you can get a CZ EVO Scorpion. A better choice, IMO.
 
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NIGHTLORD40K said:
Would love to find one of the very early Sub-2000s with the aluminum receiver......but I think those were only ever setup for Kel Tec mags
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The very first ones did, but KT quickly learned they needed to have it run on Glock magazines to meet demand.

upload_2021-10-7_16-19-38.jpeg
Mine is one of those Al receiver guns that sups from Glock mags.
 
The M1 carbine is a gas operated action. Most all of the 9mm PCC's (even the Chiappa 9mm M1 carbine copy) are blowback operated. Blowback PCC's have a sharp annoying recoil compared to the incredible smooth shooting of the M1 carbine. So I highly doubt you will find a PCC that is a suitable replacement for the sweet shooting M1 carbine.

That said I like my Ruger PC9. It is a blowback PCC and the bolt slam is sharp and annoying (not hard recoil, just sharp) but it is a nice PCC and still fun to shoot. The Ruger PC9 is a pretty heavy gun which is good and bad. I have gotten quite decent accuracy from my PC9 but I bought it with the intention of working up my own load specifically tuned for accuracy in my PC9.

I have never shot the Sub2000 but have looked at them quite a bit. I really like the lighter weight and compact fold up package.

Personally I have been very under impressed with the couple AR9's I have shot.

I do wonder if the delayed roller system on the HK MP5 and clones are smoother than a straight blow back? To bad they are so expensive! I have a HK91 with the same delayed roller action but it is a bit of a kicker.
 
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MikeInOr said:
The M1 carbine is a gas operated action. Most all of the 9mm PCC's (even the Chiappa 9mm M1 carbine copy) are blowback operated. Blowback PCC's have a sharp annoying recoil compared to the incredible smooth shooting of the M1 carbine. So I highly doubt you will find a PCC that is a suitable replacement for the sweet shooting M1 carbine.

That said I like my Ruger PC9. It is a blowback PCC and the bolt slam is sharp and annoying (not hard recoil, just sharp) but it is a nice PCC and still fun to shoot. The Ruger PC9 is a pretty heavy gun which is good and bad. I have gotten quite decent accuracy from my PC9 but I bought it with the intention of working up my own load specifically tuned for accuracy in my PC9.

I have never shot the Sub2000 but have looked at them quite a bit. I really like the lighter weight and compact fold up package.

Personally I have been very under impressed with the couple AR9's I have shot.

I do wonder if the delayed roller system on the HK MP5 and clones are smoother than a straight blow back? To bad they are so expensive! I have a HK91 with the same delayed roller action but it is a bit of a kicker.
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The proper buffer in an AR setup
can actually make “felt” recoil feel very tame. My 9mm 16” AR has a firm but not at all jarring push but far less dot movement and muzzle flip than my 556 rifles.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Uh, well....the fire control group, i.e. trigger and guard, are definitely not integral (as in one solid piece) with the receiver-
View attachment 1029589
In fact, isn't this the exact same assembly used in the 10/22? I could be wrong about the materials, though- looks like the PC uses a metal hammer and some small parts. But the housing is polymer, no?
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You are correct in that it's the same assembly style, but they are not exact enough to allow swapping of 10/22 trigger components. as I discovered after i bought VQ parts for 10/22. They're just different enough to not swap. However, you can do the basics and clean up the trigger if you want. out OOB mine was only about 4# and fairly decent so other than some really basic smoothing (since I already had it apart), I left it mostly as is.

I have been seriously impressed by the PC9. it's accurate enough to bang 6 inch gongs at 200 yards with reliability. in a strange irony. mine loves the light bullets far more than the heavy ones. I figured with the carbine barrel, I could ramp up some 147's to real serious speeds. While I gained some fps over a pistol, I wasn't that impressed. Nothing like the speed gains I get shooting 38 spl with slow powder from the rossi. After exhaustive testing with 6 different powders I have come to the conclusion that blowback operated guns don't develop the pressures as efficiently as a locked breech unit. My best results have come with faster powders and lighter bullets. 231 and N330 with 115's have been the best for me. Although HS6 and a 124 is the long range champ for accuracy. I've got some 105's that I cast that I am going to try with 231 and maybe wsf just for fun.
 
MikeInOr said:
I do wonder if the delayed roller system on the HK MP5 and clones are smoother than a straight blow back? To bad they are so expensive! I have a HK91 with the same delayed roller action but it is a bit of a kicker.
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I have a braced SP5 and it is by far the most fun of all of them. They’re getting way too much money for them. I was able to get mine at the industry price but if I had to pay MSRP+ I probably wouldn’t have gotten it. Cool factor really adds to the enjoyment so if money is no object it’s hard to do better.
 
IF you're an AR guy (or going to be), my recommendation would be to go with the AR9.

They make great trainers for the "real" thing. I use the chit out of mine for working the close quarter drill stuff as the 9mm doesn't screw up my AR500 tgts. I started with a AR15 with .22 adapter, then an AR15-22, but for both recoil was lacking. The AR9 actually recoils more than 5.56, so practice is more realistic. I set mine up identical to my HD AR15, so the practice transfers over. Added benefit is I use it in our occasional IDPA PCC matches. I use my 9mm match loads, so both gets cranked out on my Dillon 650.

GVgRIG8l.jpg

Practicing on steel through the V-TAC barricade:
SOzLKG2l.jpg
 
I hated my 9mm AR with a passion. It loved to blow hot gas in my face, and one time a case head ruptured (factory ammo) and punched a couple of holes in my face. It was worse for me because I’m a lefty, but I just hate the AR as a blowback platform.
 
I’m quite partial to my Stribog A3 (roller locked) with side folder arm brace. It’s more compact and softer shooting than my AR9s.
 
anothernewb said:
You are correct in that it's the same assembly style, but they are not exact enough to allow swapping of 10/22 trigger components. as I discovered after i bought VQ parts for 10/22. They're just different enough to not swap. However, you can do the basics and clean up the trigger if you want. out OOB mine was only about 4# and fairly decent so other than some really basic smoothing (since I already had it apart), I left it mostly as is.

I have been seriously impressed by the PC9. it's accurate enough to bang 6 inch gongs at 200 yards with reliability. in a strange irony. mine loves the light bullets far more than the heavy ones. I figured with the carbine barrel, I could ramp up some 147's to real serious speeds. While I gained some fps over a pistol, I wasn't that impressed. Nothing like the speed gains I get shooting 38 spl with slow powder from the rossi. After exhaustive testing with 6 different powders I have come to the conclusion that blowback operated guns don't develop the pressures as efficiently as a locked breech unit. My best results have come with faster powders and lighter bullets. 231 and N330 with 115's have been the best for me. Although HS6 and a 124 is the long range champ for accuracy. I've got some 105's that I cast that I am going to try with 231 and maybe wsf just for fun.
Click to expand...

In every story I have read 147 gr 9MM ammo gains little to no increase in fps in a rifle length barrel. Lighter bullets gain a decent amount of speed, 100 to 250 fps
 
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