Is gunsmithing a lost art?

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Most of the old time Gunsmiths that I knew have retired and sadly most have passed away. I just don't think there is enough money in the trade to attract new people.

There used to be several guys around here that worked for Remington and did gunsmithing out of a home shop. Most of them have retired and it seems like the newer generation isn't interested in working during their off time.

I have a shooting buddy that is a machinist that does barrel work but he has a full time job and is hard to get. I just found an older guy that probably qualifies as an old time Gunsmith. He is 30 miles away from me. Walking into his shop reminds me of the gunshots that I knew as a kid. The smell of oil and leather and stuff piled up on tables and countertops!
 
One reason for less gunsmiths is less special work to be done. In the day drilling and tapping for scope mounts was a biggie, now they all come that way. Even pistols are RDS compatible now.

Another is the improvement in parts manufacture, as typified with the AR15. About 97% of them just drop in, unlike the 1911 which requires fitting. You can drop in a trigger in a SIG FCU, or an AR, and a lot of more modern guns allow it. A reason for that is also MIM - those parts hold to a much closer standard when cured and have a better finish than machined cast parts.

And, because of the AR, the design intent of simplifying assembly is now important. In the day labor costs were cheap, today you avoid it wherever possible. A simple to assemble mechanism involves less labor and not having to file and fit is much more important. This was true in the day, too - Winchester was losing money on making guns up to 1963 because the parts were poorly made and the assembly line had to file and fit everything to even get it together. The company applied better standards and QC checks, made some parts differently and started making money in 1964. They held no truck with "collectors" who praised all the hand craftsmanship, and neither did buyer up thru the 70s - they were still in business to be purchased which counts for a lot.

Like custom parts for cars, when "Detroit" sees a trend it becomes an option on the build order. The gun makers have done the same - finishes, precisoin shooting controls, tactical accessories, concealed carry meld jobs, colors, grips, etc. The SIG P938 had a dozen models at one time - now down to a few because the P365 took over that market niche. And the models for it are expanding, leaving it easier to buy the gun straight up out of the box with what you want, not what will take you years to afford and have 'smithed on the gun after months of waiting. Watch as the number of guns getting RMR cuts diminishes while that option increases as a factory item.

You CAN have your cake and eat it, too.
 
Several years ago I bought a scope from one of the national "big box" sporting goods stores. The fellow behind the counter said he was retired military and had been on the army marksmanship team. So he proceeded to mount and boresight it. I thanked him and went on my way. Got home and looked through it the crosshairs were at a 45* degree angle I went in my little shop and corrected the little error. Not everyone is what they say they are.
 
Several years ago I bought a scope from one of the national "big box" sporting goods stores. The fellow behind the counter said he was retired military and had been on the army marksmanship team. So he proceeded to mount and boresight it. I thanked him and went on my way. Got home and looked through it the crosshairs were at a 45* degree angle I went in my little shop and corrected the little error. Not everyone is what they say they are.

Don't forget - everybody's a Navy S.E.A.L.

Which means he was in the Army Marksmanship Team on top of that.
 
Several years ago I bought a scope from one of the national "big box" sporting goods stores. The fellow behind the counter said he was retired military and had been on the army marksmanship team. So he proceeded to mount and boresight it. I thanked him and went on my way. Got home and looked through it the crosshairs were at a 45* degree angle I went in my little shop and corrected the little error. Not everyone is what they say they are.

Well forget the crosshairs, if he didn't notice the turrents over yonder, I doubt he was ever in the military.
 
Caution RANT ahead:

I see at least 4 reasons good gunsmiths are disappearing.

1 Liability
2 Insurance
3 Licensing Issues
4 $$$$

Even single self employed smiths may be exposed to serious liability issues even if they didn't do anything wrong. Todays attorneys will attack anyone in the room to make a buck. We used to have a list of guns we would not work on and knew those we would not work with.

Finding errors and omissions insurance is hard for even Engineers and other professionals. My former insurance guy said anything to do with firearms sets off alarm bells with most firms who like to answer "NO" before they even hear you out. This is why many LGS's like to hire independent contractors to do repairs to shift insurance issues.

Ever changing FFL issues add to the problem. In some cases seems anything other than routine maintenance borders on "manufacturing". Some offer legal services on this: https://fflconsultinggroup.com/license-to-manufacture-firearms/

Finally is all about the $$$$. The cost of repairs by a bona fide gunsmith is/has gone thru the roof. First you have all the above costs PLUS labor. parts, machinery, tools and its not cheap anymore. Even general shop overhead has gone up with real estate market.

For those in CALIF or similar overregulated states there is the issue of outright harassment. Items brought in for repair may essentially get "registered" or "reregistered". Some 12 years ago we had a "visit" to see if every item in for repair was "booked". Oddly one item that "arrived" very, very briefly before state inspectors magically arrived was flagged and shop got cited. To this day we believe it was a set up.

So there you have it. Given the ghost gun issues, the unlicensed and uninsured, the incompetent's (and some flat out thieves out there) Finding a reliable smith may be well beyond a challenge.
 
I only know one real gunsmith anymore,
and he's retired and does any work on
whatever whim might be in his mind that day.
When I say gunsmith, I mean someone who
does that full time as their only job and is
skilled enough to make a comfortable living
at it
IMO I blame the gunsmith shortage on the
21st century's need for instant gratification.
People want whatever done yesterday and
don't want to wait on anything. That's in
every field and business. I started in the
automotive business over 40 years ago
and there were people who had never
had another job besides what they did
every day and they were experts at
their trade. Unfortunately the automotive business became full of people who had
managed a motel or a pizza restaurant
and the the people who truly understood
what needed to happen and had an affinity for the trade gradually got pushed
out and replaced by people who were
better served working in another field.
It's that way in every industry in
America today, gunsmithing included
 
There's another factor. Folks who never pay. Shop had a rack of ones that were in limbo. Many had high bills - most higher than the value of the item - even in for parts. Others were valuable and could be sold as unclaimed but laws and ownership issues varied.
 
The number of firearm sales has drastically increased in the last decades and while many of these newly acquired firearms can be described as "modular", where parts can be easily changed by an unskilled owner, there is still a huge number of other firearms, new and used, that will require a skilled person to work on them.

A good gunsmith is not someone with little to no training who only ordered a leather apron from Brownells as a token of his professionalism but someone who can weld, use a lathe, and is mechanically inclined and has gathered experience in many years of work.

A person so talented will find much more profitable fields to work in.
 
It is far from a lost art in Montana.View attachment 1031359

I am somewhat reluctant to believe that a two or four semester program at a community college will create an artist in the vast field of gun smithing and it also says in the overview that the completion of the program will prepare graduates for entry level positions in the firearm industry . In comparison, in Germany it takes three years to become an associate in a standardized program, a master degree is necessary to start a business as a gunsmith.
 
I am somewhat reluctant to believe that a two or four semester program at a community college will create an artist in the vast field of gun smithing and it also says in the overview that the completion of the program will prepare graduates for entry level positions in the firearm industry . In comparison, in Germany it takes three years to become an associate in a standardized program, a master degree is necessary to start a business as a gunsmith.
I didnt say that. Im just responding to the op where the idea of gunsmithing being a lost art, here in Mt. gunsmithing is alive and well also have classes available at community colleges. I know nothing about Germany or any other country or state or how they do things. The Smiths/Rifle builders I do know tell me that the main income is from new builds not tinkering.
 
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My classmate taught for a while at during the pilot program gunsmithing school in Montana. It was headed by Fred Zeigler. We swapped books (my book for his book on PO Ackley).

Gunsmithing is still alive and well. It just hard to be a gunsmith and a businessman. Customers want to talk and then you get no work done. You need a counterperson (like a wife) so you can get work done. Like I said earlier, many gunsmiths specialize in what they do nowadays. They keep it narrowly focused so they can bring in revenue.
 
May be. I can't find anyone local who works on revolvers. Ugly black guns...no problem.
Last time I asked about a revolver capable gunsmith was at my indoor range. They said they had an inhouse gunsmith that specialized in revolvers and he happened to be there. I had a Model 10 and wanted to replace a missing side plate screw. He stated he'd just pull out the other(yoke screw) to measure it up to which I told him the yoke screw was different than the screw I wanted replaced to which he argued they were the same. He proceeded to rumage through a drawer looking for a common slotted screwdriver that would fit. That's when I should've asked for my M10 back. He proceeded to bugger up the screw and proclaimed "it is different". I went on S&W website found what I wanted and got it cheap instead. Glad I didn't have him do anything more challenging than take a screw out without buggering it.
 
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I am somewhat reluctant to believe that a two or four semester program at a community college will create an artist in the vast field of gun smithing and it also says in the overview that the completion of the program will prepare graduates for entry level positions in the firearm industry.

I would say you are right about that.

I would also say higher education in any form does pretty much the same thing. Gives you knowledge you then have to be able to apply on the job.

No higher education prepares you for the workforce. For some reason, many people think it does, including and especially those attending school. They get a rude wake up call when they get their first job….and then their feelings get all hurt.
 
Well I dropped my P-85 off + briefly chatted with the gunsmith. As mentioned, it's in the basement of his home, but pretty extensive. He openly admitted he wouldn't call himself a "gunsmith" and when I asked about milling operations he referred me to a couple local places. He seemed very knowledgeable without making any attempt to impress. I'm sure he'll be a good resource, but still no gunsmith!
 
The only guns you can usually justify labor cost on from a true gunsmith are old collectable guns and those few smiths are rare and usually have to be mailed out to. Modern guns are built in a throw away society we live in and with cost of living wages and cost of operating a business you would spend more on a smith fixing some of these modern guns than you can just go buy a new one. Regarding accurizing many new factory rifles are incorporating some very good accuracy features in a moderately priced package and those cheaper ones that don't aren't worth fixing anyway. The only gunsmiths I know generally specialize in one of two things. Either restoring or repairing older antiques or collectable guns or building modern custom competition rifles or pistols. Then there are those parts builders with AR's and such but I don't consider piecing together or just replacing premade parts being a gunsmith.
 
I believe that before even thinking about hanging a shingle one should be mechanically inclined, and "practice" on their own guns for a while before attempting to work on others'; guns. This teaches the patience necessary, and teaches about the consequences of messing up; buggering screws, etc.
The only official "schooling" I every received was the US Army Supply/Armorer School, at Ft. Jackson. But having been raised in a family of mechanics, I learned many of the same skills by osmosis (Or Dad showing me how to unscrew a difficult screw with buggering the head, etc.) and when given the care of dad's much-abused 1100, which was the same age as me and slightly more abused than me, I used the mechanical knowledge I'd accumulated, and the functional knowledge of how guns work from an excellent reference of the same name by Ian V. Hogg to get it working right again. Word got around that I worked in shotguns, and boom, I was a gunsmith. (parts replacement, trigger work, and some fitting only at that point.) Then the Army. After that, I learned how to use a lathe and milling machine, but not owning my own, only used them in the shops I worked in that had them.
Nothing wrong with most gunsmithing schools, but if you aren't mechanically inclined already, it's an uphill battle.
 
I believe that before even thinking about hanging a shingle one should be mechanically inclined, and "practice" on their own guns for a while before attempting to work on others'; guns. This teaches the patience necessary, and teaches about the consequences of messing up; buggering screws, etc.
The only official "schooling" I every received was the US Army Supply/Armorer School, at Ft. Jackson. But having been raised in a family of mechanics, I learned many of the same skills by osmosis (Or Dad showing me how to unscrew a difficult screw with buggering the head, etc.) and when given the care of dad's much-abused 1100, which was the same age as me and slightly more abused than me, I used the mechanical knowledge I'd accumulated, and the functional knowledge of how guns work from an excellent reference of the same name by Ian V. Hogg to get it working right again. Word got around that I worked in shotguns, and boom, I was a gunsmith. (parts replacement, trigger work, and some fitting only at that point.) Then the Army. After that, I learned how to use a lathe and milling machine, but not owning my own, only used them in the shops I worked in that had them.
Nothing wrong with most gunsmithing schools, but if you aren't mechanically inclined already, it's an uphill battle.

Wife's GD just finished boot at Ft Jackson. They wouldn't let me on base for the ceremony citing vaccination status, but I think they just didn't want any Marines. ;) Thank you for your service!
 
I know a gunsmith who went to a reputable school for several years to learn the trade

He found out, pretty quick, that most gun people are cheap. They need a firing pin, extractor etc for an old gun and only want to pay $30 for him to make it
The metal, precision machining and heat treat take him a couple of hours to do

He ended up renting space at a local range in a wealthy neighborhood. He mainly changes sights does cleaning and replaces drop in parts. Charges a minimum of $60. Most work takes him under 30 minutes. He is booked out a month
 
Then there are those parts builders with AR's and such but I don't consider piecing together or just replacing premade parts being a gunsmith.

Was at a local show and several asked about making some minor repairs. I declined for all the reasons i have previously stated, Meanwhile 80% ARs, Glocks and whatnot frames flew out the show doors again. Some were as low as $15 with templates Many never made it in! I wonder how it will go with certain agencies claiming a "manufacturing FFL" is required for even disassembling a firearm for cleaning and putting it back together. Add in that ammo for these was down to an astounding sub $7 box. I can see many seeking a gunsmith when frame buyers need help (or mess up) invoking all the potential legal issues that may be involved. May add the "instant" NICS my take up to up to 6 weeks flat killing many legitimate sales . This seems a form of gun control in and of itself increasing many to seek other routes of acquisition. Lastly If govt starts to require NICS on each itrm logged and and out it may be chaos.
 
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