NRA Headquarters…deteriorating???

kwguy said:

Those are quantifiably disturbing. Another Heston would be nice.

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Just a thought...Oliver North?

AlexanderA said:

Some people might consider donating their guns to the Smithsonian, as an alternative. But the Smithsonian isn't exempt from "shenanigans," either. There's a conception that gifts to the Smithsonian are in perpetuity. But the Smithsonian sells off "excess" items all the time. And sometimes, these sales involve self-dealing by the curators. I've even known museum volunteers who have benefited from these kinds of arrangements.

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Just donate them to me. I promise to take good care of them.

Thank you Mr. Mills.

kwguy said:

I don’t care where the money goes. The only thing that matters is their ability to lobby and hold off anti 2A legislation. How they do that is immaterial. Wooing Congress critters with airplane trips, fancy dinners in expensive suits in expensive places, name it. It doesn’t matter. All that matters are the results.

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When principles and morality no longer matter, the organization is doomed to decline. People who disagree are enabling the decline, as they don’t hold leaders accountable.

Why shouldn’t Wayne LaPierre steal as much of your money as possible? You are giving him and his cronies a complete pass.

LiberalVet said:

When principles and morality no longer matter, the organization is doomed to decline. People who disagree are enabling the decline, as they don’t hold leaders accountable.

Why shouldn’t Wayne LaPierre steal as much of your money as possible? You are giving him and his cronies a complete pass.

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Because the only thing that matters to me, in this situation, is the protection of our 2A rights in a dirty DC powerhungry pool of would be tyrants. So if it takes come corruption and dirty dealing, which is how anything gets done (or not done, in the case of crappy legislation) in DC, I don’t care. Just get the job done.

But, if the NRA and WLP are betraying and selling out the 2A, and aren’t actually accomplishing that mission, then they can go away.

@WilburMills I "liked" you post for your detailed contribution to this topic, and not in relation to the tale related.
This entire situation needs the light of day, transparency is the answer, and all we get is obfuscating smoke and mirrors. So, it is no wonder that all manner of darkness and thuggery are afoot, both real and imagined.
Your post was a ray of sunshine (if some tarnished) that is much needed.

Every gun forum I am on has NRA defenders who insist this is just about Wayne and not structural problems and the whole org shouldn't be punished over him. Or in these times they're too important to the cause to be allowed to fall, and we cannot let this dead weight sink and still successfully fight off the attack on our rights. OR some say if you think the problems are that serious you need to stay and make your voice heard so you can bring it back to its old Glory.

I say the same thing back to them until I'm blue in the face. The current board believes they can hide behind the current political climate and use it to buy time to find a way to beat its troubles back far enough that nobody will remember once the dust settles and things calm down. They do not care what members have to say. They don't care that people aren't happy. They don't care about the news coverage. They care if there is still money coming in. Keeping Wayne on shows it. They see no incentive for change until/unless they take a serious enough financial hit to make them believe they can't ride this out without fixing their fundamental problems. As long as they have a pool of members too scared by current politics to walk away they will hold on. Biden is the best thing they have going for them right now. Just file some legal briefs here and there, get their name on some high profile suits, they can keep redirecting everybody. They'd have probably crumbled far faster if Trump was still in office and nobody was worried about federal anti gun legislation.

Every dollar they spend in court fights against Leticia James is a dollar that could be spent filing more 2a lawsuits and funding 2a candidates for next year. At what point do we start to think about coalescing around leaner, more agile organizations who've watched and learned from NRA's problems, and which can give us a more multi-headed snake to show the left you can't take out the 2a movement with a single court case.

eharri3 said:

Every gun forum I am on has NRA defenders who insist this is just about Wayne and not structural problems and the whole org shouldn't be punished over him. Or in these times they're too important to the cause to be allowed to fall, and we cannot let this dead weight sink and still successfully fight off the attack on our rights. OR some say if you think the problems are that serious you need to stay and make your voice heard so you can bring it back to its old Glory.

I say the same thing back to them until I'm blue in the face. The current board believes they can hide behind the current political climate and use it to buy time to find a way to beat its troubles back far enough that nobody will remember once the dust settles and things calm down. They do not care what members have to say. They don't care that people aren't happy. They don't care about the news coverage. They care if there is still money coming in. Keeping Wayne on shows it. They see no incentive for change until/unless they take a serious enough financial hit to make them believe they can't ride this out without fixing their fundamental problems. As long as they have a pool of members too scared by current politics to walk away they will hold on. Biden is the best thing they have going for them right now. Just file some legal briefs here and there, get their name on some high profile suits, they can keep redirecting everybody. They'd have probably crumbled far faster if Trump was still in office and nobody was worried about federal anti gun legislation.

Every dollar they spend in court fights against Leticia James is a dollar that could be spent filing more 2a lawsuits and funding 2a candidates for next year. At what point do we start to think about coalescing around leaner, more agile organizations who've watched and learned from NRA's problems, and which can give us a more multi-headed snake to show the left you can't take out the 2a movement with a single court case.

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and wouldn't you know it, with the rise of a number of rapidly growing left wing gun rights organizations, the need for the NRA is disappearing faster than ever.
It never ceases to amaze me how much people will call for smaller and smaller decentralized government, but a big fat lobbying organization that is milking them for donations gets a pass. NRA is the Greenpeace of the right wing. There are better, more agile organizations out there doing good work, who are far more deserving of your dues and donations.

2012:

“I cannot bear to read many of the comments here. So many seem to have given up the fight before the first battle of whats going to likely be a long war. People advocating government sanctioned mental exams and "agents" stopping by your house unannounced to see if your guns are properly secured? Are you people SERIOUS?”


2021:

“Every dollar they spend in court fights against Leticia James is a dollar that could be spent filing more 2a lawsuits and funding 2a”

Two posts from two different years on this forum. Our memories are short. The fact this thread even exists is because a target of opportunity is being exploited by Bloomberg, and the rest of his ilk, via their media and backdoor legal-political connections. They are executing their “long war”, right under our noses, and we’re talking about the weather.

Well since Wayne would rather sink the ship then resign tells us all we need to know.

Not saying he shouldn’t, but the resignation of WLP will do nothing to stop anti-NRA efforts.

kwguy said:

Not saying he shouldn’t, but the resignation of WLP will do nothing to stop anti-NRA efforts.

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A healthy NRA would be able to easily counter the anti-NRA efforts. They did so very successfully for decades before WLP and his crones severly damaged the organization. I personally can't see it worth our effort to repel the anti-NRA efforts until we have an NRA worth fighting for. That would IMHO take WLP to exit the scene and the bylaws rewritten so that an untouchable leader like WLP cannot arise in the organization again.

I recall when WLP was able to go on the major news shows and defend the Second Amendment. Granted he wasn't that effective due to his style but he made the case. Now, can you conceive any current NRA officer making an appearance outside of a narrow set of fringe news services that speak only to a slice of the choir? I can't.

mcb said:

A healthy NRA would be able to easily counter the anti-NRA efforts. They did so very successfully for decades before WLP and his crones severly damaged the organization. I personally can't see it worth our effort to repel the anti-NRA efforts until we have an NRA worth fighting for. That would IMHO take WLP to exit the scene and the bylaws rewritten so that an untouchable leader like WLP cannot arise in the organization again.

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I don’t believe there has been quite the organized effort against the NRA in the past as there is now, with Giffords and Bloomberg having declared war on them, with the specific purpose of taking them down. This was announced post Sandy Hook. There was a sea change against the NRA then, fronted by those two, and their ilk, and it’s playing out now. They’re doing it on the downlow, because if it’s “advertised”, it’ll galvanize the pro 2A crowd. New NRA leadership? Doesn’t matter, they’ll focus their sights on them as well and take them down. It’s now a mission with them, as evidenced with the focus of NY against the NRA. Despite the myriad other problems they could focus on in NY state, NRA “corruption” and whatever else, being “public enemy number one” in the eyes of NY State is absolutely ridiculous. The only way that makes any sense is if they are specifically being targeted, which they are.

kwguy said:

I don’t believe there has been quite the organized effort against the NRA in the past as there is now, with Giffords and Bloomberg having declared war on them, with the specific purpose of taking them down. This was announced post Sandy Hook. There was a sea change against the NRA then, fronted by those two, and their ilk, and it’s playing out now. They’re doing it on the downlow, because if it’s “advertised”, it’ll galvanize the pro 2A crowd. New NRA leadership? Doesn’t matter, they’ll focus their sights on them as well and take them down. It’s now a mission with them, as evidenced with the focus of NY against the NRA. Despite the myriad other problems they could focus on in NY state, NRA “corruption” and whatever else, being “public enemy number one” in the eyes of NY State is absolutely ridiculous. The only way that makes any sense is if they are specifically being targeted, which they are.

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Assuming everything above is true it does not change my point that I have to want the NRA to survive and despite being a life member I have zero interest in the current NRA surviving. The NRA as it currently is, is a greater liability to the 2A movement than an asset. The NRA leadership has violated the membership's trust and that is going to be very hard to win back.

mcb said:

Assuming everything above is true it does not change my point that I have to want the NRA to survive and despite being a life member I have zero interest in the current NRA surviving. The NRA as it currently is, is a greater liability to the 2A movement than an asset. The NRA leadership has violated the membership's trust and that is going to be very hard to win back.

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With putting out NRA fires, and it’s issues right now, I can see how the organization may not be as effective in helping the 2A, but in light of those actively trying to destroy the 2A, I don’t really see how the NRA is a liability, except for bad press, which is going to happen anyway, because the media is anti 2A anyway.

My personal frustration with the NRA is that my 5-year memberships seemingly expire weekly according to the endless mailings received. They really needed to be straightforward and honest about that foundational topic.

kwguy said:

With putting out NRA fires, and it’s issues right now, I can see how the organization may not be as effective in helping the 2A, but in light of those actively trying to destroy the 2A, I don’t really see how the NRA is a liability, except for bad press, which is going to happen anyway, because the media is anti 2A anyway.

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The liability is that WLP and his cronies are stealing and/or frivolously spending membership money. So a large portion of the money we have given them to fight for and support pro-2A causes is not being used for that and that ultimately hurts our cause. I feel I can give my financial support to other groups and get more bang for my buck.

mcb said:

The liability is that WLP and his cronies are stealing and/or frivolously spending membership money. So a large portion of the money we have given them to fight for and support pro-2A causes is not being used for that and that ultimately hurts our cause. I feel I can give my financial support to other groups and get more bang for my buck.

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I just kind of wonder about the “wiring under the board” about the whole thing. As dirty as DC and politicians are, I’d bet (sadly) that there’s more to it than just simply filing pro 2A lawsuits. Something that the NRA, with its longtime connections, and its ability to operate in certain political “grey areas” might have as an advantage that other groups may not have?

kwguy said:

Something that the NRA, with its longtime connections, and its ability to operate in certain political “grey areas” might have as an advantage that other groups may not have?

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One such connection, not a grey area but little known across the membership or general public, is the ability of NRA to operate at international venues, including the United Nations, as a recognized Non Government Organization (NGO). This NGO work was described in the 2006 book The Global War on Your Guns: Inside the U.N. Plan to Destroy the Bill of Rights. (Listed as written by WLP, I suspect he actually led a team at NRA to produce the book.) There is a lot of solid historical information in the book; I wonder how active and effective NRA has been in more recent years in this arena.

kwguy said:

I just kind of wonder about the “wiring under the board” about the whole thing. As dirty as DC and politicians are, I’d bet (sadly) that there’s more to it than just simply filing pro 2A lawsuits. Something that the NRA, with its longtime connections, and its ability to operate in certain political “grey areas” might have as an advantage that other groups may not have?

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I would not be surprised if the NRA was able to discretely operate in some of those "grey areas" to the pro-2A benefit but the problem is they have also betrayed the membership's trust, and squanders membership money. This is why so many of us are so angry at WLP and the leadership of the NRA. They were (probably still are or could be if they righted their ways) the most powerful and effective pro-2A lobbying group going and now we are rapidly loosing that asset due to greed at the top of the organization and have to scramble to build new one(s).

Exactly. I fail to see why someone dedicated to the 'cause' does not see when it is time to move on. In a way, WLP has RBG syndrome. Personal adulation, perhaps financial benefit, belief in one's indispensable abilities and characteristics lead you to a delusion or deliberate attempt to hang on.

I also don't understand (but I do) why folks cannot distinguish from wanting an effective leadership to thinking that Wayne's critics want the organization to fail.

Generals are replaced when they cannot do the job. Doesn't mean you disband the army.

I wonder

GEM said:

Exactly. I fail to see why someone dedicated to the 'cause' does not see when it is time to move on. In a way, WLP has RBG syndrome. Personal adulation, perhaps financial benefit, belief in one's indispensable abilities and characteristics lead you to a delusion or deliberate attempt to hang on.

I also don't understand (but I do) why folks cannot distinguish from wanting an effective leadership to thinking that Wayne's critics want the organization to fail.

Generals are replaced when they cannot do the job. Doesn't mean you disband the army.

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I wonder how some of the relationships and ability to “navigate the swamp”, so to speak, lie with the inherent ability of the NRA, vs the ability of WLP? The ability to operate internationally, as mentioned above, is quite interesting! I’d say that’s clearly doesn’t depend on WLP, but instead is inherent to the organization. I wonder if he’s able to do something in other “political swamp realms” that another person wouldn’t be able to?

What he can do in the political swamp is sink into the muck and disappear. Stop defending an embarrassment and negative asset to the RKBA. His time has come and gone. The strength of the NRA was not the silver tongue of Wayne convincing people to support rights. It was in the promise of votes for legislators and executives. Gun positive voters no longer need absurdists screeds in the magazines to understand the issue. Those were designed to pull some funds out of demographic that research demonstrated would write a check. As far as expanding the appeal of the 2nd Amendment, they were counterproductive. The NRA has no credibility to reach out the the expanding gun ownership base of minorities, those not politically conservative, etc. They doubled down on the shrinking demographic base as short term market research indicated there was money there. However, that is long term bad strategy.

The industry organizations realize this and are designing appeals and publishing how to articles in the trades to get to a diverse, political and demographic expansion of buyers. One article said that you have to realize that you can sell to more than "pale, male, whale". That's cruel, esp. the latter part but has some truth to it.

How the expanding demographic desire for gun rights can be seen in: https://reason.com/2021/10/17/public-defenders-vs-gun-control/

Can an NRA led by WLP do this? No. Now that is ok with some as they want the gun world to be a politically closed club of an ideological defined slice. See it here all the time but that's not a good future strategy.

As a side bar, the focus on SD is interesting as it the down playing of the defense against tyranny. Heller focused on SD and contained ambiguous language about banning some weapons type. We claim that it allowed the ownership of the EBR/MSR guns (MSR being a stupid attempt at deflection of the issue and bowing to the sporting use whine for not banning the gun, please let us have our toys).

The ambiguity of Heller leads to analyses like this: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/20/opinions/supreme-court-gun-rights-case-lethality-tucker/index.html

Some guns are too deadly and not really needed for SD and should be banned. The defense against tyranny is not mentioned. In the forum, we see folks proclaiming 5 is enough, not just for convenience but that you are nut if you think you need more. That plays directly in gun banner hands. The NRA didn't play up defense against tyranny for two reasons:

1. Market research indicated that folks didn't care about that.
2. Some of the folks who wanted to defend against tyranny thought the tyranny would come from the preferred NRA political demographic and explicitly said so. Quite embarassing.

Can the NRA as constituted deal with a neutral defense against tyranny position. Hard to say.

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