Low brass (12ga) for #4 Buck?

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GeoDudeFlorida

GeoDudeFlorida

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I’m new to shotgun reloading and need some advice. I seem to recall some pump guns respond badly to heavy loads in low brass. I have Winchester white AA wads and a good selection of powders for buck loads - Ramshot Competition, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, and 700x - but I haven’t bought any hulls or shot yet. Any recommendations?
 
Brass height bears little relevance with reloads.
It’s the internal dimensions of the case that determine load capacity and compatibility with suitable wads.
I’ve loaded 1-1/2” magnum loads in 2-3/4” hulls back in the days when we could use lead shot reloads for waterfowl hunting. Using skeet hulls...
I used the same powders, wads, primers, and hulls for buckshot.

My favorite 20ga buckshot load is any compression hull (have a lot of Winchester promotional Universal hulls) with a Remington RP-20 1oz wad, 17.6gr of LongShot, 209 primer, and 10 .310” round ball cast shot. Kills deer and pigs dependably. Hard cast shot out performs soft dropped shot.
I also have a very low recoil load using 12.5gr of GreenDot in a 7/8oz wad. Patterns unbelievably with 20 #4buck. Works well with #6-#7.5 too. Kicks like a .410 in my TriStar Raptor. Drops hulls at my right foot.

Unique and Blue Dot should give you some good results. Just pick a load suitable for wads and hulls used. The older Winchester AA wad and 9-OO pellets over 22.5gr of Unique is a good starter.
You may find it beneficial to cut the petals off of the wads. Adjust powder charge up or down depending on hull, wad and crimp desired.

The fun is in shooting/patterning the loads.
It’s hard to beat some of the speciality factory loads (ie: federal flite-control tactical buck), but functional effective loads at MUCH less expense than factory is easily attainable.
 
GooseGestapo said:
Brass height bears little relevance with reloads.
It’s the internal dimensions of the case that determine load capacity and compatibility with suitable wads.
I’ve loaded 1-1/2” magnum loads in 2-3/4” hulls back in the days when we could use lead shot reloads for waterfowl hunting. Using skeet hulls...
I used the same powders, wads, primers, and hulls for buckshot.

My favorite 20ga buckshot load is any compression hull (have a lot of Winchester promotional Universal hulls) with a Remington RP-20 1oz wad, 17.6gr of LongShot, 209 primer, and 10 .310” round ball cast shot. Kills deer and pigs dependably. Hard cast shot out performs soft dropped shot.
I also have a very low recoil load using 12.5gr of GreenDot in a 7/8oz wad. Patterns unbelievably with 20 #4buck. Works well with #6-#7.5 too. Kicks like a .410 in my TriStar Raptor. Drops hulls at my right foot.

Unique and Blue Dot should give you some good results. Just pick a load suitable for wads and hulls used. The older Winchester AA wad and 9-OO pellets over 22.5gr of Unique is a good starter.
You may find it beneficial to cut the petals off of the wads. Adjust powder charge up or down depending on hull, wad and crimp desired.

The fun is in shooting/patterning the loads.
It’s hard to beat some of the speciality factory loads (ie: federal flite-control tactical buck), but functional effective loads at MUCH less expense than factory is easily attainable.
Click to expand...
That’s great information. Tells me just what I need to know. I have a line on some Federal clear hulls and some Hornady 4 Buck. Only got 70 or so Winchester primers so that’s what I’ll use. Thanks again. Hitting the Lymans manual this weekend.
 
Low brass, high brass iirc has always been debated. As a general rule I use high brass for hot shotshells, ie hunting etc. For 2 reasons, 1) pressure 2) More brass around the larger amount of powder in the shotshell.
 
unwashed said:
Low brass, high brass iirc has always been debated. As a general rule I use high brass for hot shotshells, ie hunting etc. For 2 reasons, 1) pressure 2) More brass around the larger amount of powder in the case.
Click to expand...
Thanks! I'm looking for about 1250fps at 10 yards from a #4 Buck load (27 pellets or 1-1/8 ounce?) using probably either Unique or Blue Dot. If I can get there with standard low-brass Federals it will save me some $$ - if I have to go online and buy high brass that's okay, too. I'm looking for a close-range small-medium critter load, not a deer load.

MEC 600 Jr. - Charge bars - any preference or recommendations for what I'm looking to build? :)
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Thanks! I'm looking for about 1250fps at 10 yards from a #4 Buck load (27 pellets or 1-1/8 ounce?) using probably either Unique or Blue Dot. If I can get there with standard low-brass Federals it will save me some $$ - if I have to go online and buy high brass that's okay, too. I'm looking for a close-range small-medium critter load, not a deer load.

MEC 600 Jr. - Charge bars - any preference or recommendations for what I'm looking to build? :)
Click to expand...
IMO, that should work, getting above 1300 fps would be my deciding point.
 
I've loaded almost universally low or medium brass height shells for everything from ultra light target loads, to round ball practice fun slug loads, to very hot steel shot loads, to heavy and hot 1 1/2 oz lead loads with Longshot or 571. These have been fired in automatics, pumps ranging from modern Rem 870 to vintage Ithaca M37 to ancient Win M97. Never had an issue of any sort that I would attribute to brass height. So long as the crimp and load are good, brass height is only useful for identification of the shells. I have found some foreign made shells to have issues with the brass base tearing upon extraction. This has happened with target loads.

The shells I used mostly for field loads were Win AA (old style), Fed Gold Medal (steel), and old style Federal paper basewad. I did find a 6 point crimp to be superior for loads that are a tight fit and require significant crimping pressure. The 6 point seems to hold better. Brass height was useful for identification of certain shells when fumbling around in a pocket full of cattail fluff. My steel goose loads and 1 1/2 oz backer pheasant loads were loaded in the medium height Gold Medal brass for this reason.
 
You will be following published data, nothing more, nothing less. I have yet to see a shotgun loading manual list any data that differentiates between low brass and high brass. What the data does list is the specific hull, the correct wad, the primer, powder charge and shot weight.
As mentioned in post 2, it is the internal specs of the shell that matter.
 
splattergun said:
You will be following published data, nothing more, nothing less. I have yet to see a shotgun loading manual list any data that differentiates between low brass and high brass. What the data does list is the specific hull, the correct wad, the primer, powder charge and shot weight.
As mentioned in post 2, it is the internal specs of the shell that matter.
Click to expand...
First, thanks for the advice. It was well stated and much appreciated. Second, I had options according to the data - Alliant, Western, Lyman's and Winchester data. Remember, all I'm starting with is a free-to-me, hand-me-down MEC 600 Jr. setup for 1-1/8ounce 12ga. hunting loads and Red Dot. I was given three powder bushings with the kit - #29, 31, and 32 - no shot, about 500 Win-AA "White" 1-piece wads, no hulls, BUT! I already have a very broad selection of powders for components - Competition, Red Dot, Blue Dot, 2400, Unique, 700X, HS6, WST, Bullseye, No.2, No.5... I've got some powder. :)

For 1-1/8oz/#4 Buck loads I found a variety of hulls and primers as options and wasn't sure what I should use versus what will work. Also, I got a few Win AA hulls free, which I was given to understand are kind of "the" universal loading hulls, ordered some new/unfired, unlabeled, factory primed Fiocchi (16mm) clear plastic hulls ($15/100), but I only have about 70 Win 209 primers so what I test with using the Winn-AA and what I build out a few boxes with using the Fiocchi will be different. Thus the questions.

Don't worry, I know better than to go rogue and start making up recipes. ;)
Shotgunning, I've been told, is more like pastry than savory. You can't just add a pinch of something and expect it to get better.
 
The difference in brass length was on the old paper hulls. The Hi brass was to keep the propellant from burning out the side of the paper on heavy loads. These days it really does not matter but they still make high brass because of tradition and some stubborn old timers. Same reason they still list dram equivalent on the specs.
 
FROGO207 said:
The difference in brass length was on the old paper hulls. The Hi brass was to keep the propellant from burning out the side of the paper on heavy loads. These days it really does not matter but they still make high brass because of tradition and some stubborn old timers. Same reason they still list dram equivalent on the specs.
Click to expand...
Stubborn old timers. You know me so well. ;)
 
Agree the brass height does not matter with today's plastic.
And most economy hulls use steel anyway, true brass is generally only used on target (premium) hulls.

FWIW, the OP might want to weigh 27 pellets of #4.
IIRC, 21 pellets is the number that puts you at (or nearest) 1 1/8 oz.

Reads like your wad is the weak link in the 27 pellet load, as the AA wad is too long in the base for the heavier
payload to allow for a proper crimp.
Believe you would be collapsing the wad legs to get 27 pellets in.

The W-W 1 1/4 oz. wad - yellow- would be ideal, but you have what you have.

My data does show a Unique load at 1250 - 1 1/8 oz. using the AA wad in AA hulls with a W-W 209.
Of course there is plenty of data with WST and 700X at 1200 fps.

JT
 
BTW, my long time "critter" load for general purpose barnyard defense was 1 1/2 oz N.P. lead BB (weighed). I was pushing them in a Gold Medal hull with some now discontinued W571 and a WAA12R wad and a mylar shot wrap. It was a grim reaper on critters up to coyote at ranges out to 50 yards.

I also loaded some lighter, basically a standard warm trap load over Green dot. 1 1/8 oz (weighed) with a WT12 wad (cheaper version of the WAA12, same data). This did good service on smaller critters such as raccoon and opossum, but patterns would have been a bit sparse for coyote at longer ranges. I mostly had it to use up my remaining BB shot on random targets, as I found 3" Steel BB to be just as effective on the larger stuff, and #4 lead to work better on the smaller stuff without the boutique loadings.
 
Brass height bears little relevance with reloads.
Click to expand...
^^^ THIS ^^^
Pressure is contained by the steel chamber/barrel, not the brass.

Steel base -v- Brass base/Calibration note:
Brass WinAA /Steel Rem_GunClub load the same
People throw away GunClub.
Pick it up wherever you find it
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
I’m new to shotgun reloading and need some advice. I seem to recall some pump guns respond badly to heavy loads in low brass. I have Winchester white AA wads and a good selection of powders for buck loads - Ramshot Competition, Red Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, and 700x - but I haven’t bought any hulls or shot yet. Any recommendations?
Click to expand...

Blue Dot will give you some nice hot buckshot loads. It's what my Dad and I used in our 1 5/8 oz. duck and pheasant load in the days before steel shot, under WAA-12R (red) wads. I also recommend going to https://www.ballisticproducts.com/ , if you haven't already. They are the go-to, IMO, for slug and buck.


GeoDudeFlorida said:
That’s great information. Tells me just what I need to know. I have a line on some Federal clear hulls and some Hornady 4 Buck. Only got 70 or so Winchester primers so that’s what I’ll use. Thanks again. Hitting the Lymans manual this weekend.
Click to expand...

I recommend not using the WAA-12 wads in Federal hulls. Federal hulls are straight walled, and WAA-12's are a tapered hull, meant for tapered hulls like WW AA and Rem. STS and Nitro Hulls. There are some recipes for "cross-wadding" (my own term for using Fed. type wads with AA or Rem. hulls and vice versa) but with the tapered wad in a straight hull gas leakage can blow the pattern, and cause undue plastic buildup in the barrel. Putting the straight wad in a tapered case will raise pressures, and is usually done with loads on the lower end of the pressure scale.

unwashed said:
Low brass, high brass iirc has always been debated. As a general rule I use high brass for hot shotshells, ie hunting etc. For 2 reasons, 1) pressure 2) More brass around the larger amount of powder in the shotshell.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. Nothing wrong with putting your field loads in hi-brass, (which is a misnomer if using hi-"brass" made in the last 20-30 years. It's all steel.) and target loads in low brass, but it's just for identification purposes. As was already mentioned by FROGO207, the reason for the hi-brass was pinholes burnt through the paper on low brass paper hulls. (still is a concern with Federal paper Trap loads. You get about 6 loads before they burn through.)
 
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entropy said:
Blue Dot will give you some nice hot buckshot loads. It's what my Dad and I used in our 1 5/8 oz. duck and pheasant load in the days before steel shot, under WAA-12R (red) wads. I also recommend going to https://www.ballisticproducts.com/ , if you haven't already. They are the go-to, IMO, for slug and buck.




I recommend not using the WAA-12 wads in Federal hulls. Federal hulls are straight walled, and WAA-12's are a tapered hull, meant for tapered hulls like WW AA and Rem. STS and Nitro Hulls. There are some recipes for "cross-wadding" (my own term for using Fed. type wads with AA or Rem. hulls and vice versa) but with the tapered wad in a straight hull gas leakage can blow the pattern, and cause undue plastic buildup in the barrel. Putting the straight wad in a tapered case will raise pressures, and is usually done with loads on the lower end of the pressure scale.



Doesn't matter. Nothing wrong with putting your field loads in hi-brass, (which is a misnomer if using hi-"brass" made in the last 20-30 years. It's all steel.) and target loads in low brass, but it's just for identification purposes. As was already mentioned by FROGO207, the reason for the hi-brass was pinholes burnt through the paper on low brass paper hulls. (still is a concern with Federal paper Trap loads. You get about 6 loads before they burn through.)
Click to expand...
I was given some Win-AA hulls and just ordered a bag of 100 more of the same from BP - also ordered some over-powder wads - 072FS12, 12ga Flex-Seal Wad (250/bag) - for the Fiocchi hulls and #4 Buck I ordered yesterday. Thanks for the warning on tapered vs. straight wall hulls. The Win-AA are tapered and the Fiocchi are straight, according to the description. I am a repeat customer of BP, by the way. ;) Good company.

I looked up loading data and did find some for that combo but it must be some of that "cross-wadding" you're talking about. Western No.8, pg. 97, lists Ramshot Competition w/ WAA12 wads in Fiocchi hulls for 1-1/8oz. loads w/ Win 209 primers it says 20.9gr. of R.Comp @10,716psi gives 1250fps.

I have to say, this is going to be fun researching and learning a new set of skills! :)

My "primary" next-to-the-door SG is an older cross-trigger safety Steven 520 with a riot-length barrel and 5-shot tube. It came from the Florida State Prison in Starke. I bought it from the dealer who bought a lot of stuff at auction. It was wrapped up in paper and tied with twine, a rusty mess and fully disassembled. I brought it back to life and it's not much of a looker but shoots darned good. :) I've used Remington 4 Buck in it for weasels and coyotes when they start sniffing around too close. Works good. One shot and they all but one scatter.
 
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JT-AR-MG42 said:
FWIW, the OP might want to weigh 27 pellets of #4.
IIRC, 21 pellets is the number that puts you at (or nearest) 1 1/8 oz.

Reads like your wad is the weak link in the 27 pellet load, as the AA wad is too long in the base for the heavier
payload to allow for a proper crimp.
Believe you would be collapsing the wad legs to get 27 pellets in.

The W-W 1 1/4 oz. wad - yellow- would be ideal, but you have what you have.

My data does show a Unique load at 1250 - 1 1/8 oz. using the AA wad in AA hulls with a W-W 209.
Of course there is plenty of data with WST and 700X at 1200 fps.

JT
Click to expand...
I was wondering if I should go with fewer pellets at 1-1/8oz or buy a new charging bar for the full 27-pellet 1-1/4oz. load. I think since this is just a start on a longer journey and my intended use is vermin that wanders up the path looking for an easy meal, I'll try going by weight, not worry about pellet count for now, and buy a couple of charging bars for 7/8, 1, 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 when supplies are available again. But, yes, I knew it would be a low pellet count load. I kind of think maybe the MEC charging bar doesn't care about the size of the pellets and "should" work fine? I'll find out, for sure. Oh, also have a Lee adjustable shot dipper which lists all of the Buckshot sizes and settings for the right weight-pellet count so I have something to fall back on, if needed. :)
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
I was wondering if I should go with fewer pellets at 1-1/8oz or buy a new charging bar for the full 27-pellet 1-1/4oz. load. I think since this is just a start on a longer journey and my intended use is vermin that wanders up the path looking for an easy meal, I'll try going by weight, not worry about pellet count for now, and buy a couple of charging bars for 7/8, 1, 1-1/4 and 1-1/2 when supplies are available again. But, yes, I knew it would be a low pellet count load. I kind of think maybe the MEC charging bar doesn't care about the size of the pellets and "should" work fine? I'll find out, for sure. Oh, also have a Lee adjustable shot dipper which lists all of the Buckshot sizes and settings for the right weight-pellet count so I have something to fall back on, if needed. :)
Click to expand...

Large pellets generally will not work with a charge bar, and must be counted or dipped. With BB lead, I was able to get them to flow through a charge bushing with some very careful jiggling and jarring, but soon switched to a dipper. I found a 1 1/4 oz bushing to throw close to 1 1/8 oz of BB shot. Can't remember if it was plus or minus a few pellets. I ended up making a dipper with a section of 20Ga hull and a brazing rod soldered into the primer hole. Once calibrated (cut to length), it got me one or 2 pellets short of the correct charge which was confirmed on a digital scale. You'll probably be best just going with your adjustable shot dipper and setting it just low of the correct weight and dialing in with one or 2 pellets on the scale.

I also think cross-wadding is overstated. It IS unwise to use straight wads in tapered hulls. You run into a lot of issues here, both mechanical in terms of getting smooth bases and proper crimps, and ballistic in terms of potential pressure spikes. Tapered wads in straight hulls generally have sufficient gas sealing properties to mitigate any issues, so long as wad length and volume are sufficient to make a good load. I have encountered issues in severe cold with taper wads in straight hulls combined with the slowest speeds of powders and worn hulls with weak crimps. Basically I was looking for trouble with those loads and encountered erratic ballistics (this was in 16 Gauge, where limited component selection forced my hand). The above mentioned 571 load was with old stock WAA12R which were a straight wall wad. I believe modern WAA12R are tapered.
 
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Use of a compression (injection molded) hull does away with the weak point in a shot shell.
The weak point was the RIM of the shell head.
The old sleeve and tube (paper) hulls could/would blow out at the rim. Way before the tubes would burn through.
The High Brass was so that the shell head brass would obturate, gripping the inside of the chamber reducing the head thrust against the bolt, reducing the stress against the locking lugs or hinge pins of singles or doubles.
In modern shells, the brass is for the extractors to grab and extract the hull.
Anybody remember the Activ brand of hulls with No BRASS? Only a steel insert molded into the head for reinforcement.
Popular with the skeet shooters, they weren’t the greatest with pump or semi autos as the extractors would chew them up. So, brass remains (steel too) on shot shells.
 
GooseGestapo said:
Anybody remember the Activ brand of hulls with No BRASS? Only a steel insert molded into the head for reinforcement.
Popular with the skeet shooters, they weren’t the greatest with pump or semi autos as the extractors would chew them up.
Click to expand...

And Eclipse were even worse; no insert, and softer plastic. more like a wad's.
 
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