Muzzleloader vs modern cartridge hunting

Loonwolf, what have you shot the smaller animals with in ML? Round ball or a bullet of some kind?

brewer12345 said:

Loonwolf, what have you shot the smaller animals with in ML? Round ball or a bullet of some kind?

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Shot a couple with hornady roundballs, but most ive shot with my gun were .452 240xtp mags.

LoonWulf said:

Shot a couple with hornady roundballs, but most ive shot with my gun were .452 240xtp mags.

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Reason I ask is that I have mostly shot smaller deer that probably were all 100 pounds or less. With a 54 or 58 round ball even a less than perfect shot placement pretty much flattened them.

brewer12345 said:

Reason I ask is that I have mostly shot smaller deer that probably were all 100 pounds or less. With a 54 or 58 round ball even a less than perfect shot placement pretty much flattened them.

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Even going to a 54 cal would probably improve the flops id get, but the 50s dont have much chance to expand in a goat thats 6-8" wide......shooting softer bullets would help also, but i havent found anything that shoots as well as the t/c sabots and the xtp mags.

4v50 Gary said:

I'd let the bore decide what bullet to use. Some twists like patched round balls and others like conical. I'm convinced that the 535 grain Minie does very well (but I wouldn't want to use it for small game).

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Most modern sidelocks have a 1:48 twist which is a compromise twist. Some of them like round balls, some of them like conicals. Round balls and minies like a slower twist. Conicals like a faster twist.

I have heard of many people comparing a .50 cal to a 30.06 at 50 yards, though obviously an .06 is much better over that yardage in both power and trajectory. A buddy took a moose with 1 shot from his .50 cal TC at 50 some yards in Alaska. As for small game, I've shot many rabbits and squirrels with my .50 cal. just by dropping 30 grains of powder under a patch and RB. Even at 10 yards the RB will go thru and thru without expanding which works well with head shots. As stated before, a quick second shot can be had by dropping a RB right on top the powder charge for a quick, close, finishing shot. I generally shoot better groups at sight-ins than others on the line with conventional rifles with my .50 cal. GPR. In 2005, I placed 5 in 10 ring w/3X from 50 meters and graduated from Missouri School Of Back Powder Accuracy, Cum Laude. Got a nice diploma too. If interested go to: Blackpowderrifleaccuracysystem.com

Lnf Crzr said:

View attachment 1036259 Let’s look at the average Percussion.50 or In-line. Then a 54 or bigger,others also

Let’s look at the average Normal 150yard or less hunting distance most game is taken at.

Now a comparison of your average normal cartridge’s used for Hunting….

I’d say 243, 270, 30/30, 308, 44magnum, 30/06, 7mm mag,Others also.

What’s your take on Effective killing ability of the Old Muzzleloaders compaired to the Modern.

I think the old Mountain men did well with what they had. Was just thinking about what they used and how we have such advantages in ballistics,follow up shots and trajectory, Or do we ?

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So in 1867 a guy named James Forsyth wrote a book, The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles. He was used to going for dangerous game, India elephant, India Rhino, tiger, as well as other very large game such as Nilgai. Even though he wanted a flat shooting muzzleloader that would reach out 200 yards..., so he used large bullets (he thought .69 round ball was the smallest to use for any big game, deer family or other) and very large powder loads..., he admitted in his book that he never shot farther than 100 yards in the woods, and most of his shots were around 50 yards, and he exclusively used round ball. He even came up with his own rifling type for rifles, aka Forsyth Rifling.

So I'd say that most muzzleloader hunters with iron sights only go to 100 yards, and many a lot less, and IF one has an optic..., then 150 yards would be what I think most ML hunters use as a max. Sure, you're going to find guys who claim they go to 200 or even 300 yards..., and among them you will find some that actually have done that, with an optic mounted ML rifle.

At 150 yards or less, ML rifles are lethal. (why do I use the word "lethal" ??? ). Because with my .530 round ball out of more than two dozen deer taken with it... I've only had to "track" three deer. Some of the deer were BANG-FLOP.

So..., compared to a modern cartridge rifle, what's the differences?

First..., I've never seen a "follow-up" shot with a muzzleloader. Even a double barreled ML rifle with both hammers cocked..., the deer either is down, or it moved off faster than restoring a sight picture would allow. I HAVE seen some bad shots with cartridge rifles, followed by even worse attempts at a second hit with a cartridge rifle..., so fast reload isn't really a factor (imho) to list as an advantage of a breech loading rifle when talking harvesting large game. If the hunter is a good shot AND the rifle is accurate to the distance from the hunter to the game animal..., a second shot should not be needed. (please note..., I place large, dangerous game, into a different category than "large game")

So..., I'd say the advantage of a modern cartridge over a muzzleloading rifle are...,

A) All weather capability. Even though a caplock is more weather resistant than my flintlock..., there are just too many weather variables even for a caplock, and fixed ammo eliminates these from the problem.
B) Much better bullet designs. The bullets will do much much more to ensure a clean harvest at extended range. Otherwise, dead is dead, and at 100 yards or less, no advantage over the least sophisticated of bullets, the all lead round ball...
C) Effective range. What that means is that the hunter can put the round into the vital area of the large game each time, to give a quick, humane kill, and thus little if any tracking are needed. With the proper cartridge, in an accurate rifle with an optic, and good practice by the hunter, that ML 150 yards can be doubled to 300 yards for the majority of hunters, when they select a fixed cartridge rifle. Further still, for hunters who want to develop the skill to do so, and maintain it...,
D) Fast reload on large, dangerous game, or where predators other than human are present. Sure I could take a .72 round ball double-rifle over to Africa, and hunt large game, but IF it was large, dangerous game, such as a Cape Buffalo, or in an area where I might encounter Lions..., I'd have two shots with a double rifle, and Lions hunt in groups, and fumbling around asking the "gun boy" to hand me another rifle is not as good an idea, as having something like a bolt-action rifle in .404 Jeffrey with a five round magazine..., another option would be a .458 Winmag.

Disadvantages:
A) Overconfidence..., I think there are too many hunters using modern rifles and optics that they will try a mediocre shot thinking the cartridge will make up for their bad position. I've known too many guys who try to compensate for bad marksmanship by using a "magnum" cartridge.
B) Inaccuracy..., a factory made rifle often has accuracy shortcomings, that traditional muzzleloaders do not have..., even when the distance to the large game is as short as that used for the iron sighted muzzleloader. I've known too many hunters that have not found a truly accurate round for their rifle, and fewer still that switched to hand loaded ammo tailored for their rifle. The muzzleloader hunter using a repro of an antique, MUST develop a tailor made load for that rifle.
C) Lack of attention to detail. Too many modern hunters (imho) really understand about maintenance of their rifle, so there is copper buildup in the bore, or even damage to the bore due to poor normal cleaning, and accuracy suffers.

LD

In my area its a rare thing to get a shot on deer under 75 yards. The area is hills with mid elevation desert vegetation. The last deer I killed was at 200 yards. What amazes me is how some guys think 100 yards is a 1\2 mile.... it's 300 feet. It ain't that far, I was dropping Jackrabbits a couple of years ago with a Blackhawk shooting .38 special ammo at 100 yards plus. Was doing the same thing at 70 yards plus with a Ruger old army. Sure, someone is gonna go look at the ballistics tables in their reloading manual and spout off about bullet drop and velocity and such, my point is know what the gun can do and know what you are capable of.

Jackrabbit1957 said:

In my area its a rare thing to get a shot on deer under 75 yards. The area is hills with mid elevation desert vegetation. The last deer I killed was at 200 yards. What amazes me is how some guys think 100 yards is a 1\2 mile.... it's 300 feet. It ain't that far, I was dropping Jackrabbits a couple of years ago with a Blackhawk shooting .38 special ammo at 100 yards plus. Was doing the same thing at 70 yards plus with a Ruger old army. Sure, someone is gonna go look at the ballistics tables in their reloading manual and spout off about bullet drop and velocity and such, my point is know what the gun can do and know what you are capable of.

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I never shot at anything living but I used to shoot milk jugs at 100+ yards with a .38 special. Once you figure out the barrel itself can be part of the front sight it's not so hard.

chickasaw_hunter said:

I didn't know Robert Redford was left handed. I wonder how easy that was to find out there on the frontier. Looks like he did it though.

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Good thing Hatchet Jack was also left handed.

I have shot my BP rifles with round ball out to 150 yards into a sand pile. Then dug the balls out. The damage to the balls wasn't that bad. They had lost a lot of their power at that range. Nothing like the impact at 75-80 yards. Would they have killed a dder at that range? Maybe, maybe not. But I learned I wouldn't try a shot at that range. As far as I am concerned a real BP rifle(sidelock or flintlock) or a pistol caliber carbine is a 100 yard range gun.

But that works OK for me since of the 30 deer and two Elk I have killed only one was more than 80 yards away. And that was a 243 shot at 250 yards. If I consider the shot to be the least bit risky I pass on it. There is always tomorrow or even next season. I have lost one deer and it still bothers me.

As far as comparing a primitive rifle to a modern one the modern rifle has it all over the primitive gun. But thats why I like hunting with them. Killing deer got too easy with a modern rifle. The BP rifle put the sport back in the hunt.

Then if thats what you think go for it. But if you had your answer then why start the thread? With a conical maybe. But not a round ball.

Killing ability of a muzzleloader compared to modern rifle. A muzzle loading 4 bore will drop an elephant. They used muzzleloaders with open sights for 1000 yard shooting competition. Muzzleloaders can do just fine.

I do not feel at all undergunned with a muzzleloader while hunting. I frequently carry a muzzleloader during firearms deer season in place of a more modern firearm. The load I use in my .45 caliber inline muzzleloader is a 320 grain bullet loaded with 100 grains of pyrodex RS powder. That load chronos at around 2000 fps on average. A 320 grain bullet moving at 2000 fps has 2842 foot pounds of energy. To put that into perspective, the standard .45-70 load is a 300 grain bullet moving at 2065 fps with around 2850 foot pounds of energy

Even a conical at 150 yards is a stretch. Maybe better from one of the wanna be inline muzzle loaders but I don't own one of those and would never buy one. But if someone else likes them then thats fine with me.

Loyalist Dave said:

B) Inaccuracy..., a factory made rifle often has accuracy shortcomings, that traditional muzzleloaders do not have..., even when the distance to the large game is as short as that used for the iron sighted muzzleloader. I've known too many hunters that have not found a truly accurate round for their rifle, and fewer still that switched to hand loaded ammo tailored for their rifle. The muzzleloader hunter using a repro of an antique, MUST develop a tailor made load for that rifle.
C) Lack of attention to detail. Too many modern hunters (imho) really understand about maintenance of their rifle, so there is copper buildup in the bore, or even damage to the bore due to poor normal cleaning, and accuracy suffers.

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I agree with these points but don't believe it's specific to .....or more accurately RELATED to equipment used. I think it's more related to mindset, and then mindset of folks LIKELY to use the equipment. Traditional muzzleloader users tend to be enthusiasts as opposed to people just using a tool to achieve an end.

Perhaps in the next few months I'll actually get the test some of the same bullets at the same speeds from both my incoming new muzzleloader (thanks @Lnf Crzr!) And my 458 Winchester magnum.
I'm betting they produce nearly identical results........

ThomasT said:

Even a conical at 150 yards is a stretch. Maybe better from one of the wanna be inline muzzle loaders but I don't own one of those and would never buy one. But if someone else likes them then thats fine with me.

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I beg to disagree. My P53 Enfield is accurate to minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards with a minie ball. A deer at 150 is no stretch at all.

hawg said:

I beg to disagree. My P53 Enfield is accurate to minute of five gallon bucket at 300 yards with a minie ball. A deer at 150 is no stretch at all.

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What's the hold over at 300 with one of those?

LoonWulf said:

What's the hold over at 300 with one of those?

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Probably slightly more than a 12ga slug. My guess would be about 6ft.