.223 or 5.56?

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Cemetery21 said:
That 1/8" difference at 300 yards is really what it's all about. But, most of us have rifles and abilities that cannot shoot that difference.
I applaud those guys that strive for that 1/8" difference (and I used to think I was one of them). But if you are not that guy, then some of the brass prep may not show up on your target. So, decide who you are (today) but learn all you can 'cause you might be the other guy some day.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely a guy in search of the mythical 5 shots in one hole guy.
Actually I don't think it's all that mythical, just really really tough.
If what I've been told and have watched on YT are true then that's my goal.
Kinda like bowling a 300, a hole in one, or a running of the table (billiards).
It's been done, I've even come very very close but I have never seen it with
my own eye's.
 
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kmw1954 said:
Seems we have completely alternate experiences with 223 brass.

I will be shooting a 223 bolt gun this winter in an open rifle league with ranges from 100 to 300yds and found the gun and ammunition's make a huge difference. Then just for giggles I will be competing against some very able shooters using some very well built bench rest guns. As far as I know I will be the only one firing a 223 bolt gun.

So this past summer while developing loads for this competition I arrived a a time to just test some brass and what I had the most of. This amounted to LC, GFL, PCM, PSD and Norma.

The test was this; processed 25 of each all exactly the same, same time, same machines, same process. Then loaded them all again at the same time, same machines, same set-ups, same components. Then fired each at the same session, same day, round robin in 3 shot volleys. Recorded and marked each target.

After this exercise I found that the brass did make a difference. Some produced smaller groups and some produced may less "fliers".

Granted for some the sizes may be insignificant but when trying to hit 1" targets @ 300yds. 1/8" can be the difference between a hit or a miss.
Click to expand...
I don't use 556/223 in a bolt gun. Yes, I do think 1/8 difference in competition is huge, but for my purposes its plenty
kmw1954 said:
Seems we have completely alternate experiences with 223 brass.

I will be shooting a 223 bolt gun this winter in an open rifle league with ranges from 100 to 300yds and found the gun and ammunition's make a huge difference. Then just for giggles I will be competing against some very able shooters using some very well built bench rest guns. As far as I know I will be the only one firing a 223 bolt gun.

So this past summer while developing loads for this competition I arrived a a time to just test some brass and what I had the most of. This amounted to LC, GFL, PCM, PSD and Norma.

The test was this; processed 25 of each all exactly the same, same time, same machines, same process. Then loaded them all again at the same time, same machines, same set-ups, same components. Then fired each at the same session, same day, round robin in 3 shot volleys. Recorded and marked each target.

After this exercise I found that the brass did make a difference. Some produced smaller groups and some produced may less "fliers".

Granted for some the sizes may be insignificant but when trying to hit 1" targets @ 300yds. 1/8" can be the difference between a hit or a miss.
Click to expand...
I get that. in competition, that 1/8th is everything.

I don't use it in a bolt gun for one, and don't shoot competition either.

With my load, I get sub MOA at 100 years with 3 different AR platforms..so my my needs...that plenty good enough..

But yes, If I was shooting competition, I would be going all out on everything
 
I compete in a non-sanctioned way.
Mostly with myself and often with other shooters that show up to the range if they like to put
some skin in the game.
I've done pretty well at times, paid my bills with my winnings a number of times.
Some guys just can't take that a novice with modest budgeted gear can spank their a$$
against their mega dollar gear.
Don't get me wrong, I've had my rear thoroughly spanked by folks shooting what looked like old
worn out, beat up guns. They just know their guns waaay better than I know mine because they've been
shooting it almost all their life.
And then there's the guy with $20,000 invested in their set up and kicked my a$$ too!
Thankfully that guy doesn't show up very often.
 
Thank goodness you are not accumulating LC brass because then you would have to sort by date code, just because it has one, With other brands it doesn't seem to matter that much.:uhoh::oops:
 
Cemetery21 said:
That 1/8" difference at 300 yards is really what it's all about. But, most of us have rifles and abilities that cannot shoot that difference.
I applaud those guys that strive for that 1/8" difference (and I used to think I was one of them). But if you are not that guy, then some of the brass prep may not show up on your target. So, decide who you are (today) but learn all you can 'cause you might be the other guy some day.
Click to expand...

I am not quite "one of those guys" either but I am trying. If I were that serious then I too would not be shooting a 223 for this. But I have found it very interesting to see just how far a factory stock Savage can be taken. How accurate ammo can be produced with just everyday tooling and presses.

If I were just loading blasting ammo for an AR platform I wouldn't be pushing this hard either.
 
Rule3 said:
Thank goodness you are not accumulating LC brass because then you would have to sort by date code, just because it has one, With other brands it doesn't seem to matter that much.:uhoh::oops:
Click to expand...

Hmm...why would I have to sort LC brass? I don't for my .308's and they seem to do pretty darn good.
 
kmw1954 said:
I am not quite "one of those guys" either but I am trying. If I were that serious then I too would not be shooting a 223 for this. But I have found it very interesting to see just how far a factory stock Savage can be taken. How accurate ammo can be produced with just everyday tooling and presses.

If I were just loading blasting ammo for an AR platform I wouldn't be pushing this hard either.
Click to expand...

With my Savages (.308 bolt action) I've reached out to 600 yards and have had pretty decent success at both 10" & 6" steel targets.
It took me awhile to get there but I got there.
There's a 4" target but I can barely see it. I've danced all around it and hit it....occasionally, probably by accident!
My understanding is an unmodified/un-customized decent AR is good to about 300+ yards with quality ammo.
I haven't even zeroed my AR to 100 yards yet. At 15-20 yards it's dead on accurate out of the "box".
I put 25 rounds in a hole about 1" in diameter! At 50-100 yards I couldn't hit an 8.5x11 sheet of paper but I don't think red dot sights
are designed for 50-100 yard shots, at least mine isn't 'cause I could barely see the target!
I just put one of my older but decent rifle scopes on the AR and hopefully that'll give me a better chance at 100 yards.
 
DynoDan1 said:
so is that a "kit" you put together
Click to expand...
Yes, started off with a two die RCBS set many years ago, damaged the sizer (Me stupid), replaced it with a Redding, cause I like to try different things, bot are great. Bought a Forster sleeved seater a couple of decades ago, bought the Whidden about four years ago. Doesn't seat any straighter than the Forster. I like Forster seaters.

My buddy has a set of Matchmaster dies for his 6 GT, he really likes them. He has a Whidden 6 Dasher sizer, loves it, kicked his Hornady size to the curb.
 

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I would love to work at longer than 300 yards. The gun club longest range is 300. There is a spot on the mines i can reach out more. But there is a a lot of ATV and 4x4 traffic too. It's to dangerous to risk it. We do have a pipe line too. I did some range finder checks. Furthest i ranged was 280 yards without having to shoot over a roadway.
 
DynoDan1 said:
Yes, I'm aware that they are the same.
I'm just wondering which brand of dies to get.
Midway has Whidden gunworks Click adjust sizer die set #151631 that I'm considering.
Good? Bad? ???
Click to expand...

I've got a set of Whidden dies for my 6mmSLR.

They are fantastic dies if you want to work on incremental experimentation with FL sizing/headspace. Honestly depending on how your AR is set up...there's a very good possibility it's over-kill. For my AR15s I use plain old RCBS FL dies and a Redding competition seater.

For my .223 bolt guns and an Ar15 SPR build (WOA Barrel and matched bolt) I use a Redding FL bushing die, and the above Redding Competition seating die.

For the most part I separate my Ar15 brass by headstamp, anneal, FL size and trim using a Trimmit II. My 3Gun match brass I don't usually bother to separate, except for enough to cover the long range stages when accuracy counts, even those are only out to 400yds.
 
Walkalong said:
Yes, started off with a two die RCBS set many years ago, damaged the sizer (Me stupid), replaced it with a Redding, cause I like to try different things, bot are great. Bought a Forster sleeved seater a couple of decades ago, bought the Whidden about four years ago. Doesn't seat any straighter than the Forster. I like Forster seaters.

My buddy has a set of Matchmaster dies for his 6 GT, he really likes them. He has a Whidden 6 Dasher sizer, loves it, kicked his Hornady size to the curb.
Click to expand...

I checked Amazon for the Redding Match Master dies and they say they have it in stock.
Same price as Midway.
I have a Forster micro seater die for my .308's. Definitely helped me tighten up my groupings! Consistency is key!
At1K, I'm a bit "gun shy" to "pull the trigger" on all the gear I think I'll need. (Pun intended?)
 
Skeptic13 said:
If you haven’t bought dies yet I would suggest that you buy small base resizing die when reloading for your AR15.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hear that a lot.
I think I've narrowed my choices down to 3 sets.
Redding Master Hunter Deluxe 3- Die Set (Midway-#856312 $204.99)
Redding Competition Bushing 3- Die Neck Sizer Set (Midway #253720 $259.99)
Whidden Gunworks Click Adjust sizer 2- Die set (Midway(?) #151631 $248.99)
I'm thinkin' these'll work....I think.
Any advice/warnings?
 
My AR is a Stag-15. I've put about 125 rounds through it so far with IMI M855 62gr. FMJ green tip.
No hiccups or anything, worked flawlessly but that's only 125 rounds.
It was dead on accurate out to around 15-20 yards.
Out to 50-100 not so much but that's mostly because I was using a red dot sight with no magnification and my
eyes are getting old.
 
CoalCrackerAl said:
I would love to work at longer than 300 yards. The gun club longest range is 300. There is a spot on the mines i can reach out more. But there is a a lot of ATV and 4x4 traffic too. It's to dangerous to risk it. We do have a pipe line too. I did some range finder checks. Furthest i ranged was 280 yards without having to shoot over a roadway.
Click to expand...

Bummer!
In my neck of the woods (Rocky Mountains) there are free range areas to shoot as far as you like.
Trick is accurately measuring out to 1000+ yards and whether or not you can traverse the terrain either by foot or some quad runner thingy.
I go to ranges that are managed by the Parks & Wildlife division but are not monitored or regulated at all. Shoot what ya got as long as you want, just pick up your trash or else.
Most go up to 600 yards but if you know the right people they'll point out where 1000 yards is (kinda hidden among the brush).
Takes me 2 hours one way at 10,000 feet so ya gotta be somewhat serious about long range target shooting.
I'm OCD about shooting so I go pretty often:what:!
 
DynoDan1 said:
My AR is a Stag-15. I've put about 125 rounds through it so far with IMI M855 62gr. FMJ green tip.
No hiccups or anything, worked flawlessly but that's only 125 rounds.
It was dead on accurate out to around 15-20 yards.
Out to 50-100 not so much but that's mostly because I was using a red dot sight with no magnification and my
eyes are getting old.
Click to expand...
16 inch 1 in 8 barrel? My Stag is anything but a tack driver.

55g or 62g..not much difference. Lucky to get 3 MOA at 100 yards.

Yes, it runs flawless, but its one of most inaccurate rifles...borderline on one of the worse I've ever owned, other than the 80- 100 year old war dogs.

I do have a load that somewhat works...25.1 g varget behind a 68g Horn HPBT...with Rem 7 1/2 primers.

It gets about 1.5 MOA with that...never better. My other 2 ARs get Sub MOA with that load.

The Stag really hates any kind of ball powder also...BLC2...2000MR..you name it..it hates it. dont know why...but it explains why Mil Surp stuff sucks so bad in it.
 
Wow!!
Everything you said goes against everything I've read and heard and seen. I got the Stag because a friend has one and it shoots fantastic.
I just haven't sighted mine in yet but at 10-20 yards it was insanely accurate.
He uses Accurate 2460 which is ball powder and like I said, it shoots great, even out to 100+ yards. But he's also used CFE223 and he thinks it might perform a tad better.
Could be you got a lemon or something.
Mine is a 1:7 twist and I'm told at 1:7 I should be shooting no less than 62gr. The longer and heavier the better supposedly.
My friend usually shoots 70-77grs. Don't know the charge amount or seating depth. Each rifle is unique so what works great in his may not in mine. But at 62grs. I'm extremely pleased!
 
DynoDan1 said:
Wow!!
Everything you said goes against everything I've read and heard and seen. I got the Stag because a friend has one and it shoots fantastic.
I just haven't sighted mine in yet but at 10-20 yards it was insanely accurate.
He uses Accurate 2460 which is ball powder and like I said, it shoots great, even out to 100+ yards. But he's also used CFE223 and he thinks it might perform a tad better.
Could be you got a lemon or something.
Mine is a 1:7 twist and I'm told at 1:7 I should be shooting no less than 62gr. The longer and heavier the better supposedly.
My friend usually shoots 70-77grs. Don't know the charge amount or seating depth. Each rifle is unique so what works great in his may not in mine. But at 62grs. I'm extremely pleased!
Click to expand...
Everything shoots well at 20 yards. Even my 1928 Czech 98 with a sewer pipe for a barrel touches holes at 25 yards. The better test is 100 yards min.

Ya, I have a lemon. My buddy has one just like it (we bought them on the same day) and it does a little better...not much but still.

overall...its a 16 inch barrel carbine. It was never meant to shoot at 600 yards anyway...so it has the red dot on it..and its "minute of man" at 100 yards.. which is good enough really
 
DynoDan1 said:
I'm definitely a guy in search of the mythical 5 shots in one hole guy.
Actually I don't think it's all that mythical, just really really tough.
If what I've been told and have watched on YT are true then that's my goal.
Kinda like bowling a 300, a hole in one, or a running of the table (billiards).
It's been done, I've even come very very close but I have never seen it with
my own eye's.
Click to expand...

I've shot quite a few one hole groups with several rifles a great many shooter fo especially those in competitions. Have to be consistent not only in your loads but how you mount and shoot your rifle. Perfect practice makes perfect.

DynoDan1 said:
My AR is a Stag-15. I've put about 125 rounds through it so far with IMI M855 62gr. FMJ green tip.
No hiccups or anything, worked
Click to expand...

Green tip fmj isn't the most accurate ammo in the world. Your group sixe could be related to inconsistencies in the ammo. I bought a few bulk packs of ammo when I got my first 223, a savage axis 2, that bulj ammo shot 3 in groups at 200 yds sometimes bigger, good factory ammo, fed gmm 69 gr hpbt, shot bug holes. I bought a savage m11 in 223 and gave the axis to my sil. I've been doing load work on this rifle for 2 years and the best that I can get out of it is 7/8 ths in. In my case the axis is just more accurate, so far, than the m11. I shot the axis out to almost 600 yds and hit my target. It can be done just takes practice and a place to shoot longer distances.. by the way I use rcbs standard. Full length and neck size dies with an rcbs auto 4x4 progressive press.
 
Megawatt maker said:
Everything shoots well at 20 yards. Even my 1928 Czech 98 with a sewer pipe for a barrel touches holes at 25 yards. The better test is 100 yards min.

Ya, I have a lemon. My buddy has one just like it (we bought them on the same day) and it does a little better...not much but still.

overall...its a 16 inch barrel carbine. It was never meant to shoot at 600 yards anyway...so it has the red dot on it..and its "minute of man" at 100 yards.. which is good enough really
Click to expand...

Why does my friends Stag shoot great out 100+ yards and yours and your buddies doesn't?
He consistently shoots MOA or better @ 100-300 yards. He's even rang the gong (10") a number of times out to 600 yards.
And I agree, even a slingshot does well at 20-25 yards so I'll know more once I get it zeroed for 100 yards.
The main reason it didn't do well at 100 yards is because I can't see $#@% out that far with just my eye's.
I put on an old but very good standard rifle scope on it and I hope to have better results.
Why does almost everybody think they need a gun to kill somebody? The average Joe Blow will never encounter
a situation where they will need to shoot an intruder. Cops in rough cities often never use their gun after 30 years of service!
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's rarer than YT videos or the local news imply. And to be clear, I'm a big fan of "better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".
 
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stillquietvoice said:
I've shot quite a few one hole groups with several rifles a great many shooter fo especially those in competitions. Have to be consistent not only in your loads but how you mount and shoot your rifle. Perfect practice makes perfect.



Green tip fmj isn't the most accurate ammo in the world. Your group sixe could be related to inconsistencies in the ammo. I bought a few bulk packs of ammo when I got my first 223, a savage axis 2, that bulj ammo shot 3 in groups at 200 yds sometimes bigger, good factory ammo, fed gmm 69 gr hpbt, shot bug holes. I bought a savage m11 in 223 and gave the axis to my sil. I've been doing load work on this rifle for 2 years and the best that I can get out of it is 7/8 ths in. In my case the axis is just more accurate, so far, than the m11. I shot the axis out to almost 600 yds and hit my target. It can be done just takes practice and a place to shoot longer distances.. by the way I use rcbs standard. Full length and neck size dies with an rcbs auto 4x4 progressive press.
Click to expand...

Well I think you should go back and read my post again. I had great groupings at 20 yards or so. No problem there but 20 yards isn't much of a test.
Out to 50-100 yards it absolutely sucked but that was because I was using a red dot with zero magnification and with my eyes (even with prescription glasses) can't see $#@% at those distance's.
Also a bolt action rifle is a completely different animal than an AR. Bolt action's almost always out perform AR's...almost.
And yes, I'm aware that the ammo I used is not designed for sub-moa accuracy. It's what they had on the shelf at the time I bought the AR. That's why I
plan to start reloading 5.56/.223. I've compiled a list of stuff I need to reload for my AR (damn list is approaching 1K!!!).
I've been reloading for my Savages (.308 BA) and after a bazillion seeds of freedom, I often shoot sub-moa groups from 100 yards out to 400 yards.
Practice, indeed, makes perfect....almost. I learned this stuff virtually on my own, a lot by accident. My avatar shows a good day at the range at 400 yards.
I use RCBS for my .308's and handguns. They're great, no problems. I just want the best I can afford at the start of my reloading for my AR because I know I'm gonna be shooting it a lot!!! And I like to "stretch out" myself and my guns to see just how far I can shoot them.
Currently my place of residence doesn't have enough room to accommodate another press so I have to make due with what I got, a single stage Hornady Lock-n-Load press. I went through some "teething" pains in the beginning but I rarely run into any issues now.
 
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