Ruger 9mm Carbine Defense?

I had one of the Ruger PC carbines for a short while a couple of years back. Wasnt at all impressed with it. I would take one of my M1 Carbines or AR pistols over it in a heartbeat.

Im not opposed to using 9mm for this sort of thing, and for a couple of decades, off and on, used both an MP40 and an MP5 for just that purpose. But with the prevalence of armor these days, and the smaller AR type pistols, I think there are better choices.

The big advantage to the pistol caliber guns is that they can be small and handy, more so than most of the rifle caliber guns. I really dont see any advantage in making them "bigger".

Realistically too, I think most would probably be better served with a handgun in the tighter quarters of the house. Move outside, and its a different story.

One other thing too, at least in regards to the video being discussed here is, the boy with the gun was an idiot, and could very easily have lost control and possession of that gun if the other guy was seriously a threat.

thewillweeks said:

View attachment 1041001
Data from ar15.com. Be really careful what 300blk you use. As you can see the heavy bullets fall flat on their face in a pistol and never were great in a rifle. Also, you give up the hydrostatic shock for all loads.

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I was referring to supersonic loads such as 110 and 125 grain varmint bullets. Those supersonic loads shown are several hundred FPS shy of what a blackout will really do. Mine seams to have a fast barrel, but my 16” does 2400 fps with a 125 hp.

thewillweeks said:

Data from ar15.com. Be really careful what 300blk you use. As you can see the heavy bullets fall flat on their face in a pistol and never were great in a rifle. Also, you give up the hydrostatic shock for all loads.

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A 110gr Barnes TTSX traveling at over 2,000fps out of a 10” barreled AR 300BLK pistol trumps anything one can achieve even with a 16” 9mm carbine.

I like 9mm PCC’s for defense but a 300BLK they are not.

BreechFace said:

A 110gr Barnes TTSX traveling at 2,000fps out of a 10” barreled AR 300BLK pistol trumps anything one can achieve even with a 16” 9mm carbine.

I like 9mm PCC’s for defense but a 300BLK they are not.

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Agreed, my 9.5" barrel gets 2130 FPS with Nosler 110 Varmegeddons and is about as loud as a 16" .223/5.56. It's compact size allows it to be shouldered and still have a shorter OAL as a handgun at full extension.

While I love my 9mm PCC for what it is; great practice gun and trainer, that can be pressed for HD, IMHO it's not the best tool for the job.

This:



Compared to this:



Really isn't a close contest when it comes to HD. There's also reasons why everybody posting the praises of the 9mm SMG is using past tense....

BreechFace said:

A 110gr Barnes TTSX traveling at 2,000fps out of a 10” barreled AR 300BLK pistol trumps anything one can achieve even with a 16” 9mm carbine.

I like 9mm PCC’s for defense but a 300BLK they are not.

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Agreed. Light bullets in a 300blk beat 223 and 9mm in short barrels. It's important to note that the heavy bullets definitely cause issues, as some folks don't consider it given that for most of the commonly available 223 rounds muzzle energy is in a pretty small window across bullet weights and designs.
But at that point why don't you just shoot a 7.62x39? Because bullet weight range is the selling point for 300blk in almost every discussion I have about this. A function that doesn't work for most of what we need out of a rifle isn't much of a value added function. If you're only going to use the bullet range that overlaps 7.62x39 what does it gain you over that cartridge?
Other than using the same magazines, which is a concern if you ever mix them up.

thewillweeks said:

Agreed. Light bullets in a 300blk beat 223 and 9mm in short barrels. It's important to note that the heavy bullets definitely cause issues, as some folks don't consider it given that for most of the commonly available 223 rounds muzzle energy is in a pretty small window across bullet weights and designs.
But at that point why don't you just shoot a 7.62x39? Because bullet weight range is the selling point for 300blk in almost every discussion I have about this. A function that doesn't work for most of what we need out of a rifle isn't much of a value added function. If you're only going to use the bullet range that overlaps 7.62x39 what does it gain you over that cartridge?
Other than using the same magazines, which is a concern if you ever mix them up.

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In my case because it's a simple conversion from .223/5.56, all that's needed is a barrel. Unlike the standard 7.62x39 IF you want to go subsonic, you've already got the correct twist.

thewillweeks said:

View attachment 1040958 View attachment 1040959

Data lifted from BBTI. See that a 10" (or 16") 9mm comes pretty close to a 10" .223 Remington. And since we know any additional hydrostatic shock usually doesn't kick in in a 10.5" 223 barrel (unless you're dropping down to 45gr bullets or something weird) you're actually honestly possibly better off with a 9mm and a bullet designed for that speed range vs a 223 bullet that may not tumble, mushroom, or do anything like you expect from an AR. ARs have a number of other advantages that are worth noting. But food for thought.
Edit: convention wisdom says 55gr in an 11.5 should develop hydrostatic shock.

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The charts definitely show the 16" 9mm is lacking compared to a 10.5" 5.56 by 200 foot pounds.

Taking that one comparison, the result is the 9mm PCC is also longer and more unwieldy. The Ruger PCC as best I can compare to the picture would be 34"+ long, an AR15 Pistol about 28". Working thru a HD perspective, the Ruger won't fit thru a 30" door as readily as an AR pistol, and neither would be comparable to simply having a 9mm duty pistol with normal 17 shot magazine. Outdoors the AR pistol is known to be effective to 125m - and offers accuracy at that range more easily, Braced or not, compared to a handgun, and the PCC equally so.

Of course it can change using ammo that improves the short barrel's length, standard NATO 5.56 isn't the round of choice when the military uses the shorter barreled guns. It's a ship boarding and urban clearing weapon at that length, and the preferred round is a 70 grain bullet - which follows the same idea to use .300BO. Larger mass, and a larger base to absorb power improves short barrel performance. The 9mm PCC with a long barrel is about maxxed out with it's loads, but the AR Pistol with more optimal loading than the typical issue ammo performs better than it already does. As for semi auto SMG's, most may have been imported with 16" barrels for NFA legality, but in use MIL/LEO, they weren't, losing a lot of power to that short barrel. They made it up with full auto fire, something we won't get to use at home.

Noise is a factor, a weapon used in close quarters should NOT have a muzzle brake to reduce recoil by "bending" the blast sideways - it's 90 degrees closer to the user's ears. When the XM177 was typed in 1965 Colt was already aware and they got the additional "moderator" later, which does add length. For an AR pistol user, a linear compensator with no side ports is as close as we legally get with no stamp. And the PCC could use one too, it's not particular other than interior diameter.

Reading "the 9mm seems quieter than an AR" also implies that the bare muzzle of a 9mm is quieter than - ? A muzzle braked or even flash hider equipped AR? Most tests agree - muzzle brakes generally score higher Db at the ear, flash hiders are still a bit louder than a bare muzzle, but the linears are sometimes even quieter.

There are a lot of apples and oranges falling from this discussion tree, lets understand that generalities can be misleading. And there is another player in the game of AR pistols - a cartridge specifically designed for short barrels, the 6.8SPC. That has 50% more power at the muzzle than 5.56, making a comparison to a 9mm PCC a clearly apparent decision. .300BO would also be a better choice than 9mm.

And we haven't even brought in the bird's head grip 12GA slug guns with 14" barrels. All these on their introduction were disparaged as "range toys" as each became a market product - but in the niche of close quarters and vehicle defense, they were all the best answer at that time. What has slowly deescalated is the 9mm long barreled versions as rifle power always trumps a pistol cartridge.

thewillweeks said:

Agreed. Light bullets in a 300blk beat 223 and 9mm in short barrels. It's important to note that the heavy bullets definitely cause issues, as some folks don't consider it given that for most of the commonly available 223 rounds muzzle energy is in a pretty small window across bullet weights and designs.
But at that point why don't you just shoot a 7.62x39? Because bullet weight range is the selling point for 300blk in almost every discussion I have about this. A function that doesn't work for most of what we need out of a rifle isn't much of a value added function. If you're only going to use the bullet range that overlaps 7.62x39 what does it gain you over that cartridge?
Other than using the same magazines, which is a concern if you ever mix them up.

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I have both and like both. A blackout uses about 2/3rds the powder charge of a 7.62x39 and consequently is loaded with faster burning powders, so there is less muzzle blast and flash from a 300 blackout because it can burn its powder load more efficiently. The 28 and 30 round 7.62x39 AR magazines are also longer and generally not as reliable as 30 round 223 mags. I think 7.62x39 is the better general purpose cartridge, but the blackout is superior for the niche roles of home defense as well as being a platform to shoot subsonic suppressed for non defense. I actually prefer 9mm for suppressed plinking.

I'd much rather have a 9mm PCC like the Ruger than a pistol for HD. I think longer weapons in general are better for most people because they're far easier to shoot accurately especially when you exacerbate a situation with stress. That said I'm still in the camp that prefers a rifle caliber if I'm in a rifle platform and I think it's tough to beat a 16" 223/556 as an HD and utility rifle. I think it's a little more effective for HD and certainly more versatile for other purposes requiring more punch or longer range use. For strictly home defense I think a good 9mm PCC is a very viable option, though.

thewillweeks said:

Agreed. Light bullets in a 300blk beat 223 and 9mm in short barrels. It's important to note that the heavy bullets definitely cause issues, as some folks don't consider it given that for most of the commonly available 223 rounds muzzle energy is in a pretty small window across bullet weights and designs.
But at that point why don't you just shoot a 7.62x39? Because bullet weight range is the selling point for 300blk in almost every discussion I have about this. A function that doesn't work for most of what we need out of a rifle isn't much of a value added function. If you're only going to use the bullet range that overlaps 7.62x39 what does it gain you over that cartridge?
Other than using the same magazines, which is a concern if you ever mix them up.

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As someone who owns 9mm, Blackout and 7.62x39 guns, I have very little little use for the latter option. I use 9mm for defensive purposes mentioned above for mag compatibility more than anything. Both rifle rounds obviously have better performance and they overlap each other a fair bit. What the Blackout excels at is subsonic shooting and the 7.62x39 doesn't really compare. I'm going off memory but I believe a 245gr bullet at 1,050 FPS is right around decent .44 Special territory and I don't think anyone would say that's not enough oomph. Couple that with the ability to shoot indoors without blowing your eardrums out makes the Blackout the superior cartridge for the role.

I would use a Blackout for HD myself but for the aforementioned mag issue (I travel a lot and don't want to forget a set of mags) and the length of Blackout guns are all substantialy more than the Charger. The fact that I can run my 9mm guns just as quietly as my Blackout guns helps too.

I've been a fan of the PCC ever since I studied the ballistic charts and saw how much additional performance you can get out of a pistol cartridge by shooting it through a longer barrel. Most calibers become optimized around the 16" mark, and begin losing velocity in the longer barrels due to the effects of friction after maximum powder burn. The 9mm round shot out of a 16" barrel typically gets about a 20% velocity boost over a typical 4" pistol barrel. Similar gains occur in the .40 and 10mm versions, with some hot loads getting close to 30%. The big surprise was the .357, which gains as much as 40% when shot out of a longer barrel and continues to gain velocity up to 18" or so. Which leads me to the next point. If I'm ever having to defend my use of a firearm for self-defense, I think a jury might view an old-timey lever gun a bit more favorably than a "black rifle" which suits me just fine given the potency of the .357 shot from a carbine.

The Ruger guns are popular in IDPA/USPSA pistol carbine usage and in Steel Challenge. Lots of them in TX and NY. In the latter, they are popular as they are compliant right out of the box if they don't have a threaded barrel (which I have no use for anyway). Easy to shoot, not that expensive in ammo. They certainly are useful in SD but not my first pick up at home. Handgun and flashlight is more mobile. Long arms if you hunker down.

GEM said:

They certainly are useful in SD but not my first pick up at home. Handgun and flashlight is more mobile. Long arms if you hunker down.

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Thats pretty much my thoughts as well.

GEM said:

They certainly are useful in SD but not my first pick up at home. Handgun and flashlight is more mobile. Long arms if you hunker down.

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I agree.

And you can always sling the PCC and still grab the handgun/flashlight.

I own 2 of the Ruger carbine's but a Mossberg 590 9-shot, still lives by the bedside for HD duties.

IdaD said:

I'd much rather have a 9mm PCC like the Ruger than a pistol for HD. I think longer weapons in general are better for most people because they're far easier to shoot accurately especially when you exacerbate a situation with stress.

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Lots of cops and operators have no idea how bad it is for a civilian to miss. The liability is too great. For them it's okay to put 10 bullets into a sleeping woman during a drug raid because her boyfriend grabbed a gun. Then the DA indicts the boyfriend for her murder (he was acquitted by jury on the same day as Rittenhouse). But we can use any help we can get to score 100% hits on the attacker, even if it makes the weapon longer.

As to the video to me it was dumb and dumber have a standoff. It never should have happened. As to the Ruger Carbine it leaves no doubt to it's effectiveness.

Gruesome and sad as it was, it drove home the fact these 9mm carbines do not seem to be the toys some think they are. It was highly effective.

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9mm SMGs with shorter barrels have been used effectively for over 100 years now, and even semi-auto variants (like the semi-auto only MP5s used by police in the UK and elsewhere) have proven themselves.

9mm carbines were never ineffective. It’s just that short-barreled 5.56x45mm carbines are much MORE effective, thanks to developments in reliability and ammunition construction.

Fishbed77 said:

9mm SMGs with shorter barrels have been used effectively for over 100 years now, and even semi-auto variants (like the semi-auto only MP5s used by police in the UK and elsewhere) have proven themselves.

9mm carbines were never ineffective. It’s just that short-barreled 5.56x45mm carbines are much MORE effective, thanks to developments in reliability and ammunition construction.

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I think whats killed them more than anything else is armor and even just soft armor.

That, and maybe over-penetration in some instances. Not that I think over-penetration is a bad thing.

I am reading a book about the Ottoman Empire in the time of WWI and the preceding Balkan wars. They were supplied in part by the Germans with Mauser C96s and used them quite effectively on the battlefield. The Turks liked them.

A Beretta CX4 is actually very handy and has a relatively short overall length. It's also easy to operate one handed if you need to open doors or turn on lights and still maintain good control.

Having essentially a semiauto 357 mag with many bullet weights with little muzzle flash is a plus as well.

It should be noted that heavier 9mm bullet weights like 147 gr see little to no increase in MV.

zaitcev said:

Some of PCCs, such as Beretta Cx4, save you overall length when used.

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BlueHeelerFl said:

A Beretta CX4 is actually very handy and has a relatively short overall length. It's also easy to operate one handed if you need to open doors or turn on lights and still maintain good control.

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Yep.

About 5.7 lbs empty and less than 30" long.

View attachment 1041106

Some folks SBR the barrel just past the forend to shorten it even further.
Person in video is not me.

Mosin Bubba said:

I'm not going to comment on the background of that video, and there's a LOT to comment on, but does anyone know where that shot hit? The guy fell to the ground like a puppet with its strings cut. I'm guessing it was a heart shot.

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More than likely a central nervous system or autonomic plexus hit in my opinion, those will ragdoll anything from big game to humans.

Mosin Bubba said:

I'm not going to comment on the background of that video, and there's a LOT to comment on, but does anyone know where that shot hit? The guy fell to the ground like a puppet with its strings cut. I'm guessing it was a heart shot.

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I don't know if people are like deer, but I can say from experience that a heart shot on a deer, even with a high power rifle is usually not an instant incapacitation.

I’ve always thought when people are holding the Beretta CX4 it looks like they are posing with a fresh deep sea catch. Something about their look makes me think fish.