Evaluating Your Daily Carry Gun and Holster

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Years ago I played around with a timer and several guns I carried at the time, or had considered carrying.
All I remember is
1: all pocket guns (I had) suck for follow up shots
2: drawing took way longer than I expected unless I open carried
3: long heavy triggers had more impact on follow ups that I thought

I apparently didn’t really care as my normal edc is, and has been for over a decade, a pocket carried PM45. I does have a very nice trigger though.
 
The questions were simple:


1) your measured times from beep to first shot when drawing from the holster,
2) your measured split times between shots (when firing the second shot only when the sights have settled back on target--no hammers),
3) your shots-on-target percentages when shooting at speed from the holster,
4) the number of times you failed to disengage the safety (if your gun has one) in 500 dry presentations from the holster, and
5) performance on some standard defensive handgun skills test (my favorite is the old IDPA classifier).

Some posts are not answering a single question and all that these posts do is explaining the impressive post counts. The time that it takes to write lengthy meaningful posts, would have sufficed to practice, even dry fire practice with a free downloadable timer, and answer at least one of the questions.
 
I've posted elsewhere (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...be-that-guy-with-one-ccw-weapon.897286/page-5 post 125) that I carry an XD45 compact IWB 98% of the time, and an S&W 442 Airweight in a support-side pocket when I have to dress up or go to NPEs and can't hide the XD. The 442 goes in a support-side pocket because I want my dominant hand to always go to 3:30 where my normal gun always is. I rarely carry the two together.

So, I thought, maybe it makes sense to see how I could do on Hackathorn's HS standards with the 442 compared to the XD and the K-frame.

Times and holes on target (same shooter, drill, targets, distance, ammo, etc.):

20211201_170359.jpg 20211201_162741.jpg

Accuracy with the Airweight was consistent with the other guns, but average time for the three strings was over a second longer (7.17 seconds vs 8.29 seconds). This is approaching 0.40 seconds for each three-shot string. This doesn't sound like a lot in an internet post, but I can almost engage a fourth adversary with the XD in this amount of time.

I had only one string that exceeded 3.00 seconds. Ken Hackathorn might say that I am competent with this platform, too. At least from the ready.

Even with training ammo, this little gun is not a joy to put a lot of rounds through.

Conclusion: I would never carry the 442 as a primary gun at 3:30 on my waist. Capacity and shootability just aren't good enough. It serves OK for deep concealment or as a "get-off-me" gun on those rare occasions when the XD can't come along, though.
 
Alrighty. As the standout on post count dude in the thread, as if that matters (it doesn't), I tried to install several shot timers on my company issued phone.

It was a no go. I'd guess my phone is restricted by my employer in that regard.

Looks like a smart watch could work with this, but I'm not a smart watch guy since I can't wear one at work.

None of that stops me from my usual draw and snap cap practice in the house, though. Which my use of Crimson Trace (CT) laser grips make good use of and translates well with ease of aim (middle aged eyes) and shot to shot repeatability at 7 yards when firing live ammo at the range.

What I can say is the obvious. Drawing from my shoulder or OWB holster is normally faster than drawing from a pocket holster. But, the pocket gets the most use by me, by far.

The fastest draw from my pockets has always been with a 5-shot snub revolver with no hammer spur coming out of khaki pant type pockets. Jeans are slower. Autoloaders are slower. The banana shape of a spurless hammer snubby is just easier to grab and pull out in a hurry. But that banana doesn't fit in all pockets very well.

Comparing the aforementioned shoulder holster and OWB holster, the shoulder holster is slower to first "snap cap" than the belt holster for me.

None of my carry guns have manual safeties, so that's not an issue. What I learned early on was that a spur on a hammer of a revolver is an issue when coming out of a pocket. Covering that spur with a thumb ain't 100% when in a simulated stressful hurry.
 
I carried duty guns for 36 years. A 1911. A Glock 35 and a Glock 22. On my right hip.

My first duty holster was a Milt Sparks (rare. I had connections) and I had Milt make a clone of it for a 1 3-4” belt. I shot IPSC with either my duty belt or, the off duty clone. The gun was always on my right hip. Same gun. Same holster.

I did that for many years. Even when we went to Glocks, I carried off duty on my right hip.

As I got closer to retirement and now, retired, I only carry appendix. And, I only carry a hammer down gun.

I do mix and match a little. But, the carry position is always appendix. And, it’s either a P239 DAK in 357 Sig or a revolver. No safeties. DA trigger for every shot.

If I startle, my hand will go to my front waistband. Before, it would go to my right hip.

I’ve got an old PACT timer. I need to go play with it. I know I’m accurate. And, still reasonably quick.

Thanks for the incentive.
 
chicharrones said:
The fastest draw from my pockets has always been with a 5-shot snub revolver with no hammer spur coming out of khaki pant type pockets. Jeans are slower. Autoloaders are slower.
Click to expand...

I'm interested in the type of leather pocket holster you use with your j-frame. I've only used a Galco, and it does not stay in the pocket very well.
 
sgt127,
I assume that you use an IWB holster? I find appendix carry a little faster than 3 o'clock but less comfortable when sitting down or bending. It also conceals better.
 
PzGren said:
sgt127,
I assume that you use an IWB holster? I find appendix carry a little faster than 3 o'clock but less comfortable when sitting down or bending. It also conceals better.
Click to expand...

Yes. The advantage to IWB appendix, for me, is overwhelming. What I have found:
More natural to draw from waistline and less shoulder movement (my shoulders are a little messed up)

Left hand can lift cover garment more easily. But, I can use the gun hand to go under if need be.

Gun butt doesn’t poke up when you bend over.

Men, in a crowd, will bump up against you. Possibly side to side, passing, jostling. Men “will not” bump into each other groin to groin. It’s like trying to press two positive magnets in to each other.

You can greet and hug by just bending over a little. Other person doesn’t feel gun. Again, in a casual setting, most people don’t body hug. But a hand may go around your waist.

Easy draw seated in car. If someone comes at you in the car, your reaction would be to lean away. Effectively driving your right hand hip holster into the console.

Much easier to make a surreptitious draw (like sitting in a restaurant. No large shoulder raising movement.)

I can draw the gun, upside down with my left hand, and pull the trigger with my pinky, if I had too. Or kind of a cavalry draw. But, at least I can get to it with my left hand.

Now. I’m weird. I will only carry an exposed hammer gun Appendix. Period. I want to be able to but my thumb on that hammer when I holster. If something goes wrong, I feel resistance AND feel the hammer move, I know something is wrong.

I cannot carry a gun, pointed at my femoral artery, that has enough stored energy to fire. No cocked and locked. No striker fired (in my opinion, cocked and unlocked) even a safety is not enough. For me.

Having started with DA revolvers, I can shoot a DA gun well. Rob Leatham will beat me in speed and split times, every time. I get that. But, life’s a compromise.
 
I find it’s easier to stipulate a known standard. This gets folks on the same page, or at least in the same book.

What can you do ON DEMAND? Cold?

The 5x5 drill is a good start and everyone can try it. 5 shots, 5 yards, 5 seconds on a 5” plate (or even a sheet of copy paper) from high ready. (Most ranges don’t allow drawing from a holster)

Too easy? Double it. TEN shots in 5 seconds. Or 5 shots on each of two targets., etc.

If draws are allowed, then from the holster.

Another good one is Hackathorn’s Wizard Drill.

Use a known standard.
 
David E said:
Use a known standard.
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Agreed! This thread is all about sharing individual results against the standards you've chosen.

luzyfuerza said:
In this thread, I'm looking for comments from those who have used measured data to decide what gun/holster/carry location is best for them. Will you share the data that you used to come to your conclusions? Its worth the effort--the data you collected and the conclusions you reached are more valuable to members here than thousands of opinions!
Click to expand...
 
luzyfuerza said:
Agreed! This thread is all about sharing individual results against the standards you've chosen.
Click to expand...

the problem I’ve run into posting questions like this is that individual “standards” are either non-existent (“I’m good enough to cut a man in 1/2 and that’s good enough for me”) or so obtuse it’s not useful (“I only shoot at 4” plates at 25 yards…”)

EVERYBODY thinks they’re “good enough,” but most have never shot enough to prove it…
 
David E said:
the problem I’ve run into posting questions like this is that individual “standards” are either non-existent (“I’m good enough to cut a man in 1/2 and that’s good enough for me”) or so obtuse it’s not useful (“I only shoot at 4” plates at 25 yards…”)
Click to expand...

trackskippy said:
I know a lot of people who do carry, and most of them have never drawn a loaded gun from a holster, and dont practice in dry fire. They also dont shoot very much, and when they do, its mostly basic bullseye or pop can type shooting.

I just think that is probably more realistic when it comes to the general population than those who might have the info you seek
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I agree with both of you wholeheartedly.

What I'm trying to do in this thread is 1) draw out those who have actually tested themselves and their equipment against a standard, 2) to encourage them to share their measured results, and 3) to teach us what they learned from the experience. There are a few members here who I know have done this.

And to encourage those who haven't objectively tested themselves against any realistic standard (certainly the overwhelming majority) to give this approach a try. In the hope that they will become objectively safer and more skilled with their EDC gear in the future.
 
I recently moved to Wisconsin and my son volunteered me to do security at our church, as I did it at our former church. I was happy to do so. There's about a dozen of us who volunteer for this and we're required to meet to train at least once a month. The training is well organized, and they run us through quite a few drills. As David E mentioned one of the most telling drills is drawing from our holster and putting 5 rounds in an 8 inch target in under 5 seconds. I haven't measured the distance but 5 yards is about right. It focuses us on shooting quickly and accurately. We've also done Dot Torture drills which really make you focus on accuracy, given the size of the dots. Doing this type of training is eye opening as it's a far cry from shooting at a range which restricts the speed in which you can shoot and does not allow you to draw from a holster or move.
 
TomJ said:
I recently moved to Wisconsin and my son volunteered me to do security at our church, as I did it at our former church. I was happy to do so. There's about a dozen of us who volunteer for this and we're required to meet to train at least once a month. The training is well organized, and they run us through quite a few drills. As David E mentioned one of the most telling drills is drawing from our holster and putting 5 rounds in an 8 inch target in under 5 seconds. I haven't measured the distance but 5 yards is about right. It focuses us on shooting quickly and accurately. We've also done Dot Torture drills which really make you focus on accuracy, given the size of the dots. Doing this type of training is eye opening as it's a far cry from shooting at a range which restricts the speed in which you can shoot and does not allow you to draw from a holster or move.
Click to expand...

I do the range training of our church Safety Team. I wanted a quick, simple. yet practical course of fire.

I start them out cold on this each time. I borrowed some of the lessons learned from the church shooting in White Settlement. TX


3 Second 10 Rd

Church Standards PASSING=100%


Target: CLEET/IPSC-(C-zone or better)


15 yds—GUN AT HIGH READY


At signal, fire ONE shot


10 yds—HAND ON HOLSTERED GUN.


At signal, draw and fire ONE shot.


7 yds—Hands clasped.


At signal, draw and fire ONE shot.


5 yds—Hands clasped


At signal, draw and fire TWO shots


3 yds—Hands clasped


At signal, draw and fire THREE shots.


3 yards—Hands clasped


At signal, draw and fire ONE shot to the body, STRONG HAND ONLY.


3 yards— Hands clasped


At signal, draw and fire ONE shot to the head.
 
My general rule of thumb is I need to be able to run a FAST drill under 5 seconds from concealment. If I can get there I’m not going to quibble a 4.5 from a Glock 19 vs a 4.8 from my HK45C.

Holster wise I want to be first shot on target, using a flash sight picture, at 1.8 seconds or less. If I can’t get from relaxed normal pose in that time, my holster or location aren’t working for me, notably pocket holstering.

Other good drills are the mentioned Wizard or 5x5, Bill is good too and for a longer string comparing stage and overall times plus scoring on the FBI qualifier is a good basis for comparison as it does multiple rounds and goes all the way from 3 yards to 25
 
Having been through pistol competition as well as defensive combat schooling (civilian and military), there are a number of variables here.

The two things do not "mix" well. For speed on the draw, you need a holster that presents the arm to best advantage. This is usually the exact opposite of what constitutes best(or easiest) concealment.

In reality, everyone is slow from concealed carry.
Also, the world is filled with people of different/differing abilities. Some are swift, some slow; some halt, and others lame. Not all of us can be fit and agile (or back in our 20s again-such is life).

And, "you win on the draw"--or its corollary "You can't out-draw a drawn gun."
It's also extremely difficult to go from Condition White to Condition Red.

Which has always suggested--to me at least, that you need to be situationally aware, that you can move to Yellow to be ready to get to Orange. Drawing under Orange from concealment is no where near as complicated as trying that same maneuver at Condition Red. Which is going to be rife with paraphysiological efffects from that level of stress.

It's extremely hard to train at full adrenaline levels, with increased blood pressure, tunnel vision, tachypyschia and the like. (Would be incredibly disconcerting, too.)

While being able to get n shots off in s seconds is laudable and commendable, I'm not entirely certain it's a universal panacea. But, that could be my age and decrepitude showing, too.
 
luzyfuerza said:
I'm interested in the type of leather pocket holster you use with your j-frame. I've only used a Galco, and it does not stay in the pocket very well.
Click to expand...

It's a simple suede Bianchi IWB holster that I first tried IWB carry when I got my Taurus 85UL and carry license back in 2008. For pocket carry with that, I removed the metal clip. The shape of the holster fits Khaki/Docker pockets well (tapered bottom) and the suede stuck to the pocket lining more than it stuck to the gun.

I also tried a flexible fabric holster (Uncle Mike's type) with the same gun, but it stuck to the gun more than it stuck to the pocket. Plus, it squeaked when walking for some reason.

I sold the Taurus towards a S&W 66 earlier this year. If I can find a pic of the gun in that holster, I'll post it.

Edit: Found no pic. Sort of like the pic in the link below, but shorter for a snub barrel. Just remove the clip, but leave that patch of suede where the clip is on the holster.
https://www.galcogunleather.com/uimages/product_images/holsters/iwb/STO158_SW_640_front_1200w.jpg
 
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chicharrones said:
It's a simple suede Bianchi IWB holster
Click to expand...

Does it have a metal strip around the lip of the holster? My Galco Pocket Protector has a metal strip around the lip and I have had to tweak it repeatedly to try to balance keeping the holster in the pocket during the draw versus keeping the gun in the holster when it rides in the pocket.

I did 45 pocket presentations this afternoon, and the holster didn't stay in the pocket on two of them. Unacceptable.

I'm wondering if the pocket holsters without the metal rim keep the gun in the holster when you don't want it to slide out.

PRO158B_SW640_Front_1200w.jpg
 
@David E , what results have you and the other members of your security team achieved on that test? What have you learned from that test about everyone's EDC gear?

@JR24 , you've experimented with different guns, holsters, holster positions, and starting stances. What results did you see? What conclusions did you reach based on those tests?
 
luzyfuerza said:
Does it have a metal strip around the lip of the holster? My Galco Pocket Protector has a metal strip around the lip and I have had to tweak it repeatedly to try to balance keeping the holster in the pocket during the draw versus keeping the gun in the holster when it rides in the pocket.

I did 45 pocket presentations this afternoon, and the holster didn't stay in the pocket on two of them. Unacceptable.

I'm wondering if the pocket holsters without the metal rim keep the gun in the holster when you don't want it to slide out.

View attachment 1041531
Click to expand...

No metal reinforcement in my old bianchi. I don’t have that gun any more to test for this thread. I moved away from 5-shot pocket guns, but the ease of draw is unforgettable.

As I think about it, I used one of my grip fingers to give the holster a separation push with a knuckle as I drew that snubby. Doing that is second nature to me now, which is why I forgot about it.

However, using that technique doesn’t work on all holster designs or materials.

Honestly, I have had regrets letting that pocket snub with laser go. I will probably replace it with a S&W at some point and start all over with what pocket holster to vet out.
 
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