44mag, 450BM, 350L.

I have no experience with any of the listed cartridges but, based on reading, the 350 Legend looks like a good choice for deer in light and short rifles. For bigger game (scary big bad bears) in densely wooded areas, I would probably go with a 500 Smith and Wesson magnum if strait wall was mandatory, but I don't know if it is legal in the strait wall states. That cartridge appeals to me because I have seen the .50 caliber's work from my muzzleloader and I sure liked it a lot: 295 grain hollow point over two pellets of Triple Seven is simply perfect for deer. The only rifle I know of which chambers this Smith and Wesson cartridge is the Big Horn Armory Model 89, a nice looking but expensive lever action, or a new barrel for my Encore, which could be a future though, maybe. I wish I knew of a bolt action rifle so chambered, it could be an interesting item.

I'm surprised Henry and Marlin (of whoever is Marlin) is not cranking out lever guns in 500S&W. I think they'd sell like crazy, probably more than the .45-70 "Guide Gun" craze. (and nothing wrong with that craze) Yes the Big Horn is a beautiful rifle, would love to have one. But then...my pre-safety "JM" .45-70 Marlin would gather dust. A super-short action bolt gun would be cool in that caliber.

Ugly Sauce said:

I'm surprised Henry and Marlin (of whoever is Marlin) is not cranking out lever guns in 500S&W. I think they'd sell like crazy, probably more than the .45-70 "Guide Gun" craze. (and nothing wrong with that craze) Yes the Big Horn is a beautiful rifle, would love to have one. But then...my pre-safety "JM" .45-70 Marlin would gather dust. A super-short action bolt gun would be cool in that caliber.

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I’d LOVE a lever gun in 500 S&W! Recently acquired a H&R Handi Rifle in 500 and it’s a beast.

My family has always had the mentality of using the smallest caliber possible to safely take a deer. No sense in wasting meat from a 50 cal tenderizer. We had a good .243 load worked up. Then they lowered the caliber requirement from 6mm to .223. We never even considered using a 22 cal for the sake of a clean kill.

So if one is restricted to straight wall cases for hunting, 350L seems a logical choice.

BigBlue 94 said:

My family has always had the mentality of using the smallest caliber possible to safely take a deer. No sense in wasting meat from a 50 cal tenderizer. We had a good .243 load worked up. Then they lowered the caliber requirement from 6mm to .223. We never even considered using a 22 cal for the sake of a clean kill.

So if one is restricted to straight wall cases for hunting, 350L seems a logical choice.

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FWIW, I find big, slow bullets to kill well while sparing meat. The rainbow trajectory tends to be a limiting factor.

brewer12345 said:

FWIW, I find big, slow bullets to kill well while sparing meat. The rainbow trajectory tends to be a limiting factor.

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I'd go one step further and say that bullet construction saves more meat, along with moderate velocity, than caliber. Generally speaking, I think that many hunting bullets are lightly constructed in order to get more "dramatic" kills. As as we know, "velocity sells". So we get light bullets at higher velocity with many factory loadings. Small caliber usually means high velocity, generally speaking.

A .44 magnum slug of 265-270 grains, stoutly constructed (maybe one intended for a .444) will not damage any more meat than a .243 with a light for caliber bullet, moving as fast as possible so people will be impressed with the velocity figure. The deer may not drop as fast, but it won't go far, (my .44 always dropped them) and...wait for it...you can eat the bullet hole. !! Well, almost. Big slow bullets do kill well. Heavy for caliber bullets are much like "big and slow". But again, what sells well or better is light for caliber bullets, pushed as fast as possible.

Ugly Sauce said:

I'd go one step further and say that bullet construction saves more meat, along with moderate velocity, than caliber. Generally speaking, I think that many hunting bullets are lightly constructed in order to get more "dramatic" kills. As as we know, "velocity sells". So we get light bullets at higher velocity with many factory loadings. Small caliber usually means high velocity, generally speaking.

A .44 magnum slug of 265-270 grains, stoutly constructed (maybe one intended for a .444) will not damage any more meat than a .243 with a light for caliber bullet, moving as fast as possible so people will be impressed with the velocity figure. The deer may not drop as fast, but it won't go far, (my .44 always dropped them) and...wait for it...you can eat the bullet hole. !! Well, almost. Big slow bullets do kill well. Heavy for caliber bullets are much like "big and slow". But again, what sells well or better is light for caliber bullets, pushed as fast as possible.

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Of course, big and heavy bullets tend to have a lot of recoil as well when launched at hunting velocities. I think the light and fast helps with that in many cases.

I like saving meat and I am recoil sensitive. So the medium bore meat getters (like 35 Rem and 350L) have a lot of appeal to me. I have also found that ML round ball hits are pretty meat sparing in most cases, with the 54s seeming like a sweet spot.

CarJunkieLS1 said:

How many deer have been lost because of a rifle that shoots "good enough" but the person pulling the trigger wasn't on their A game and slightly moved the cross hair. So now a good enough rifle that can place a bullet randomly inside a 2 inch circle under ideal conditions could easily be a 4 inch rifle for that one shot. I guess there is no way to know, but how many people have said "i know I hit him good" then never find the deer or when they do they are gut shot, leg blown apart, barely grazed, etc.

This is only my opinion but I want as accurate a rifle I can get for the task I have because I can control how potentially accurate that rifle is and how skilled I am or am not to place that bullet at my aiming point everytime I pull the trigger. Those are 2 variables I can control vs the many variables I can't.

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You're making a mountain out of a molehill. We're talking the difference of an inch at 100yds. It's not enough to matter.

My buddy has a cheap Ruger BM and he loves it.

I have an 1894 Marlin in 44RM which I love. Full disclosure: I’ve never hunted with it, but wouldn’t hesitate to if I thought I’d get constant 100yards and fewer shots.

Greg

CraigC said:

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. We're talking the difference of an inch at 100yds. It's not enough to matter.

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I would be content with 2” grouping but any more than that won’t cut it for me, not because A 4 moa rifle won’t kill deer, but why would I take that when I have better options? It’s like the old adage of just being able to hold minute of pie plate. That’s great until you hold was 3” off compounded with the dispersion of your rifle turns your low lung shot into a flesh wound. Loosing deer sucks and I want all odds in my favor.

Ugly Sauce said:

I'd go one step further and say that bullet construction saves more meat, along with moderate velocity, than caliber. Generally speaking, I think that many hunting bullets are lightly constructed in order to get more "dramatic" kills. As as we know, "velocity sells". So we get light bullets at higher velocity with many factory loadings. Small caliber usually means high velocity, generally speaking.

A .44 magnum slug of 265-270 grains, stoutly constructed (maybe one intended for a .444) will not damage any more meat than a .243 with a light for caliber bullet, moving as fast as possible so people will be impressed with the velocity figure. The deer may not drop as fast, but it won't go far, (my .44 always dropped them) and...wait for it...you can eat the bullet hole. !! Well, almost. Big slow bullets do kill well. Heavy for caliber bullets are much like "big and slow". But again, what sells well or better is light for caliber bullets, pushed as fast as possible.

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I’ve killed deer with everything from a 100gr bullet at 3300 fps to a 400 grain bullet at 1200 fps. Light and fast has let me down, but 35+ caliber has never disappointed me.

You've guys with the really high accuracy requirements for hunting, I am guessing you have never had to hunt deer with a smooth bore slug gun have you?

I remember getting two-inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards and being really happy with the results. Perspective...

mcb said:

You've guys with the really high accuracy requirements for hunting, I am guessing you have never had to hunt deer with a smooth bore slug gun have you?

I remember getting two-inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards and being really happy with the results. Perspective...

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I don’t live in a slug zone but I would have no problem taking deer with one. I just would be limiting my shots to around 50-60 yards. If I have an option to push that out to 200 yards with the same level of precision then I’ll take that advantage. The standard I try to maintain is being able to hit a 4” target from field positions. In order to do that I need something with better mechanical precision than the target size because I’m not perfect. If the best weapon I have can only do that at 25 yards, then that is my effective range.

I've kind of gone with the idea that a paper plate, representing the vital area of a deer, bear or elk, will tell you what range is your effective range. That does represent a fairly large "group" (or pattern?) and I think we all strive for better than that, but a good hunter that takes careful aim will put it in the boiler room, if he can consistently keep them on the plate at whatever that range is.

Again, we want the rifle to shoot better than that, but yeah, 4"-6" group at 100 yards is a perfectly serviceable rifle. Don't have to over think it. I like to see 3", and every rifle I own that I would hunt with is capable of that. Once in a great while I do put a ball in my Brown Bess musket (normally my Turkey gun) and hunt elk, but I'm perfectly fine with a 60 yard limitation or effective range. I hunt for the pleasure of being in the wilderness, and sneaking around with a "classic" firearm, it's not a competition. I don't have to shoot something. Be one with the effective range, whatever it is. !!!

Of course, if the animal is moving, or other "environmental" factors causes your aim to go off, then perhaps one should not shoot. Hunt that game another day. If you don't fire the rifle, then you have a chance of getting back on that animal again. If I don't have a sure-shot, I don't shoot.

someguy2800 said:

I don’t live in a slug zone but I would have no problem taking deer with one. I just would be limiting my shots to around 50-60 yards. If I have an option to push that out to 200 yards with the same level of precision then I’ll take that advantage. The standard I try to maintain is being able to hit a 4” target from field positions. In order to do that I need something with better mechanical precision than the target size because I’m not perfect. If the best weapon I have can only do that at 25 yards, then that is my effective range.

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Nailed it thats exactly what I'm saying.

I actually practice sitting in a treestand and me and my buddy have a 3.5inch circle targets we shoot at at 100 yards from actual field positions. If we can't hit that 3.5inch target everytime we revisit the drawing board.

CarJunkieLS1 said:

Nailed it thats exactly what I'm saying.

I actually practice sitting in a treestand and me and my buddy have a 3.5inch circle targets we shoot at at 100 yards from actual field positions. If we can't hit that 3.5inch target everytime we revisit the drawing board.

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I do the same thing. I print out 4” circles on my label printer and stick them on a box

Axis II said:

I feel it loses a lot of energy and may not create enough damage for a quick kill at longer ranges. Call me what you will but I am the guy who uses V max bullets out of a 223rem for groundhog work because it usually turns them inside out. I want something that is going to destroy as much organs as possible so the deer doesn't run for 5-10min before it dies. I shot my doe at 60yards with a 300gr 45-70 bullet in the lungs. She stood there for about 60 seconds before deciding she was going to run. The more kinetic energy the better IMO.

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The .44Mag will cleanly take game much further than you will be able to reliably hit one. Energy has nothing to do with it, never did. It's a marketing tool for selling velocity .

If you want accuracy and quick kills get the 450 BM and shoot Hornady 250 FTX.

If you want 2” groups and a bullet that will kill quickly and will penetrate stem to stern use 450 BM and 300 gr Federal or 275 gr Barnes.

I like lots of penetration myself.

As an anecdote, I did shoot three deer out of the same group of deer with FTXs and all three were DRT.

Axis II said:

I shot my doe at 60yards with a 300gr 45-70 bullet in the lungs. She stood there for about 60 seconds before deciding she was going to run. The more kinetic energy the better IMO.

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That may be more of an argument against the light for caliber bullets fad than any lack of kinetic energy. Just saying. The Speer 400 grain JSP might have been a better choice. But a shot through the lungs without hitting any ribs will do that. With anything other than highly explosive bullets.

I'm enjoying this discussion. I've been on the fence about these 3 cartridges for about 2 months. I also noticed someone threw in the 454 Casull, which is also an interesting cartridge in the same power category. Not sure why rifle manufactures haven't picked up on this one. It's been around a long time and makes more power than a 44 mag. I saw a Browning 1885 in 454 a few days ago and almost bid on it.

I think a lot of this depends on the type of rifle. 450B and 350L were designed for semi-auto rifles but still available in other types of actions. I'm not sure if headspace on the cartridge month is an issue or not here. Seems I read someplace that one needs to be careful here with roll crimps if you reload.

I want a single shot, bolt or lever rifle in one of these 3 cartridges. I've already bought the components for 44 Mag but I'm not locked in yet.

The most powerful might not be the "best", but I can see how it may be more versatile if one reloads. Then one can have any power level they want.

mcb said:

You've guys with the really high accuracy requirements for hunting, I am guessing you have never had to hunt deer with a smooth bore slug gun have you?

I remember getting two-inch 5-shot groups at 50 yards and being really happy with the results. Perspective...

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No, but I've hunted deer with an original 1895 Winchester (30 US). You know the old cavalry carbine with the ladder sights? Those will also kill a deer if you don't have anything else and you want some meat.

Hunters have it way too easy these days. Probably the reason the game regs changed and bow/BP now has more access with longer seasons.

A buck destroyed my back yard deer feeder yesterday. I'll give him a pass this time.

I hunted Elk with this last week. 3" groups at 50 yards. !!!