Belgian Bicycle Gun - Black Powder (EDIT well no, not black powder) 22 Centerfire

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Johnm1

Johnm1

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20211227_200357.jpg


My wife gave me this gun several Christmas' ago. She didn't notice the hammer had a crack. So I took it to my local gunsmith with the instruction to not disassemble the firearm and I'd accept any discoloration caused by the repair. He didn't listen and gave me the stink eye when I picked it up where I reminded him of my instruction.

This gun fires a 22 center fire black powder cartridge very close to the modern 22 CCM. So while it was at the smith I procured a set of 22 CCM dies and 50 loaded round of 22 CCM for the brass. I couldn't find empty brass at the time. So the plan is to pull the bullets, dump the smokeless and reload them with a lead projectile.

Well there were complications a couple of weeks after I got the gun back from the smith. As in the trigger return spring popped out. Well, how hard could it be to install a trigger return spring? Several years worth of hard. It finally took 3 hands to squeeze that very strong `V` spring and push it back into place.

Enough about the trials and tribulations. It has no real maker. Probably a consortium in Liege. It has boatloads of proofs and is remarkably well made. Single and double action with a safety. I'm not so sure about the efficacy of using while on a bicycle but it looks to be a fun gun here in a little while.


Folding trigger, no trigger gaurd by design. That is a factory 22 CCM in the photo. As loaded it is a tad longer than the cylinder. Im hoping to find a 224 lead projectile short enough that I don't have to trim the cases.
20211227_200432.jpg
Loading gate
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Ejector extended
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Ejector deployed
20211227_200623.jpg

Word of advice if you ever find yourself in possession of one of these. Don't disassemble it if at all possible.
 
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My initial search for a lead projectile is coming up empty. I may have to buy a mold. I wasn't very clear in that it will be loaded with black powder. As large as the case is, probably some cream of wheat as well. This one just needs to go pop and not a big bang.

Another feature I failed to mention is it has a rebounding hammer driven by the trigger return spring.
 
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Bronco72 said:
A thought, trim the bullet and not the case ! At the distances it would be needed, I do not think the decrease in accuracy would matter .
Click to expand...

That is the hope. Jacketed bullets aren't correct for this firearm so I'll likely not use what is in the case now. I suspect the steel to be soft as it was made sometime between the late 1800's and early 1900's. I'm hoping to find a 30 grain (or so) lead bullet that is shorter than the 45 grain bullet that is in the case now so I can use the case as is. I'm intrigued by the concept of the 22 CCM and have an old bolt action 22 Magnum that I might consider rechambering to 22 CCM just for giggles. The CCM is very close in dimensions to the 22 magnum. Only centerfire.
 
Calibre is .22 Velo Dog, which is also the generic name of the gun.
Here is a site with pictures and discussions of the many, many different little revolvers.
http://www.velodogs.com
Near the bottom of the page, after all the different known makers and types, is a discussion of the popularity of the bicycle and the need for self defense by cyclists; and not just from dogs.

The Zhuk book illustrates 7 pages of the type and the 1911 Alfa catalog offers three pages of different model Velo Dogs for sale. There were also all sorts of similar dinky revolvers in .22 LR, .25 and .32 ACP sometimes CALLED Velo Dogs.
 
Johnm1 said:
That is the hope. Jacketed bullets aren't correct for this firearm
Click to expand...

Jim Watson said:
We won't mention all those pictures of Velo Dog ammo with jacketed
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm seeing a bunch of jacketed bullets in the original loading/cartridges. But I think I'll stay with my original thought of lead projectiles.

Jim Watson said:
Bull Shop sells .22 cast bullets.
Click to expand...

I'll check with him. They are all Gas Check bullets. Does the gas check not cause the same friction issue as a jacketed bullet? I had in my mind to load dead soft lead under a pretty mild charge of black powder using filler of some sort. If he casts them himself I suppose I could request the gas check be left of and have a heeled bullet.
 
Jim Watson said:
Calibre is .22 Velo Dog, which is also the generic name of the gun.
Here is a site with pictures and discussions of the many, many different little revolvers.
http://www.velodogs.com
Near the bottom of the page, after all the different known makers and types, is a discussion of the popularity of the bicycle and the need for self defense by cyclists; and not just from dogs.

The Zhuk book illustrates 7 pages of the type and the 1911 Alfa catalog offers three pages of different model Velo Dogs for sale. There were also all sorts of similar dinky revolvers in .22 LR, .25 and .32 ACP sometimes CALLED Velo Dogs.
Click to expand...

Cool link. Thanks for sharing.

Fair warning guys. Don't click on it if you don't have some time.
 
If you are going to use black powder, you will need a different lube than is used with smokeless, so make sure any you purchase are lubed for black powder.
 
Remember I said my gunsmith repaired a crack in the hammer. Well I just tested using an empty 22 CCM for function. Got 50% ignition. Look at the priimer.

20211228_215214.jpg

You can see the repaired crack as a shiny spot on the flat side of the hammer. I suspect that the firing pin wasn't replaced on the face of the hammer at the correct angle. The problem is that was probably 3 years ago. And to top it off, he retired.

FDD2E86E-92F0-4AD3-B6AE-36EEE4151B9E.jpeg

This is going to delay full function. I’ll have to find someone to reinstall the firing pin at the correct angle.
 
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Not that I can ask the smith anymore, but would a crack in the hammer be repared with a weld or could it have been repaired with silver solder?

If it was welded it seems the repair would be much simpler.
 
Johnm1 said:
would a crack in the hammer be repared with a weld or could it have been repaired with silver solder?
Click to expand...

So it seems that silver solder (technically silver braze) would be appropriate for a repair like this and I seem to remember discussing that with the smith. I need a couple of 'billionths' of an inch movement of the tip of the firing pin and the hope was that the tip could be 'bent' that much to achieve that end. Heating the tip of the firing pin I suspect would melt the silver solder. I wonder if the tip could be bent that much cold. I suspect that the silver solder is brittle and won't take much if any movement.

This really should be in the Gunsmithing sub-forum.

Here are a couple of calling cards to the smiths on the gunsmithing sub-forum

@BBBBill
@Jackrabbit1957
@TINCANBANDIT
@Michael Tinker Pearce
 
Nice Velo-Dog! I've has a couple of these. The cartridge originated late enough that it is a smokeless powder cartridge, and did indeed use jacketed bullets but these are unobtanium today.

Here's a blog post about what I did and my experiences. https://tinkertalksguns.com/2021/01/07/return-of-the-velodog/
Sorry for the link, I don't normally link to my blog but this is appropriate to the topic.
 
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Nice Velo-Dog!
Here's a blog post about what I did and my experiences. https://tinkertalksguns.com/2021/01/07/return-of-the-velodog/
Click to expand...

Interesting blog post. I need to get a lathe but don't really have the need for a full size lathe but can't seem to find a hobbyist grade/size lathe that will turn steel that appears to be worth a darn. Most everything I want to turn is 1/4" or smaller in diameter. Using my electric drill and a file is getting old.

Do you have any thoughts on how to get the firing pin to strike closer to the center of the primer ? Options that I see so far include:

- Bending the pin down further cold - This doesn't seem to be workable. The pin is thick and probably surface hardened and I suspect the silver solder, although strong, is probably brittle and would break if enough force was applied to bend the firing pin.

- Heating the end of the pin and bending it down a little - I figure the heat needed would melt the silver solder and 'undo' the previous repair.

- Brazing a little material on the bottom of the firing pin - This too doesn't seem workable. I figure the heat needed would melt the silver solder and 'undo' the previous repair.

- Undo the previous repair and redo it with the firing pin at the correct angle - This seems to be the 'best' way to accomplish the task. But it would involve taking the entire pistol apart I think. I can field strip this thing, but I have never disassembled the 'back half' of the gun and I really don't want to learn the how to's of a complete disassembly. It literally took three hands to install the trigger return spring back in the gun

- Cut the firing pin off. Drill/tap it with a small all thread. Thread it back on to the face of the hammer at the correct angle.
 
Johnm1 said:
Interesting blog post. I need to get a lathe but don't really have the need for a full size lathe but can't seem to find a hobbyist grade/size lathe that will turn steel that appears to be worth a darn. Most everything I want to turn is 1/4" or smaller in diameter. Using my electric drill and a file is getting old.

Do you have any thoughts on how to get the firing pin to strike closer to the center of the primer ? Options that I see so far include:

- Bending the pin down further cold - This doesn't seem to be workable. The pin is thick and probably surface hardened and I suspect the silver solder, although strong, is probably brittle and would break if enough force was applied to bend the firing pin.

- Heating the end of the pin and bending it down a little - I figure the heat needed would melt the silver solder and 'undo' the previous repair.

- Brazing a little material on the bottom of the firing pin - This too doesn't seem workable. I figure the heat needed would melt the silver solder and 'undo' the previous repair.

- Undo the previous repair and redo it with the firing pin at the correct angle - This seems to be the 'best' way to accomplish the task. But it would involve taking the entire pistol apart I think. I can field strip this thing, but I have never disassembled the 'back half' of the gun and I really don't want to learn the how to's of a complete disassembly. It literally took three hands to install the trigger return spring back in the gun

- Cut the firing pin off. Drill/tap it with a small all thread. Thread it back on to the face of the hammer at the correct angle.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... High-temp silver solder might be OK with heating and bending, but low-temp would definitely not be. Unfortunately there is no way to disassemble the back half without first removing that damn trigger and spring. Hate those. The best way would be to remove the hammer and re-do the repair, but without hands and eyes on the gun that's the best I can offer.
 
Michael Tinker Pearce said:
Hmmm... High-temp silver solder might be OK with heating and bending, but low-temp would definitely not be.
Click to expand...

Again, not that I can ask the original gunsmith, he's retired, but I strongly suspect that it was done with high temp silver solder.

The hammer is subject to significant forces when the trigger is pulled and I just can't imagine that the original repair was done with the low temperature solder. The gunsmith was no rookie and he really did intend to repair it correctly. And mostly did. It isn't as if he could have gone to Sportsman's Warehouse and picked up a box of 5.7 Velodog to test function. It surely did look correct.

So if I heat it and the original repair is 'undone' I'll end up with having to remove the hammer and re-do the repair. If it works, it works. I'll have to think about this one.

There is a restoration of a similar Velodog, with pictures, on the LIttlegun website. Not an exact match as the one on LIttlegun has a concealed hammer and a single mainspring/trigger return spring instead of the two springs on my firearm. If I only had a little more information on what was inside I'd be on board to disassemble it.

Nouvelle page 0 (littlegun.be)

Have you had one of these things apart?
 
I've said this before. I go slow. I have enough experience fixing things that are not broken because I didn't understand what the real problem was. So this evening after work I just looked and cycled the action to see if I could better define the problem. And I have.

First thing I noticed was that the hammer didn't go all the way forward when at rest. I don't know it should but I suspect it should.

20211229_173646.jpg

The above picture shows the hammer at rest but not all the way to the frame.

Next I noticed that the firing pin was dragging on the tube in the frame it travels through. So I smoked the firing pin and located the conflict on the pin. The thought was that if I could relieve the conflict maybe the hammer/firing pin would rotate a tad more (hammer against the frame) and the firing pin would reach closer to the center of the primer. I dont need much. Nice thought but no cigar for that thought. I initially thought the firing pin wasn't angled far enough down and the pin was contacting the primer at the 12 o'clock position and a little bit more rotation and it would come closer to the center the firing pin. Not so.

20211229_174557.jpg

As you can see from the above picture the firing pin is angled left towards the 9 o'clock position. The above picture is with the hammer pulled back and locked in the single cock notch.

20211229_174717.jpg

The above picture is with the hammer 'thumbed' forward and held just before the firing pin enters the tunnel.

20211229_175227.jpg

The above picture is with the hammer at rest and looking through the barrel back to the recoil shield and the firing pin can be seen all the way to the right.

I can relieve the conflict between the firing pin and the tunnel but that won't move the firing pin closer to the center of the primer. It may actually move it further away vrom the center.

If this issue ends up with me having to disassemble this firearm, and it sure looks like we are headed there, I will start a new thread in the gunsmithing forum.

So, any thoughts on the next option?

FYI - there is no bending the pin cold. It is too short and too thick to bend without heat. I suspect it would take a lot of heat.
 
Is there side to side play of the hammer on its pivot pin? Perhaps thin shims could be put on the hammer pivot pin on one side or both to align it to strike more in the center of the firing pin hole?

If the hole in the hammer or the holes in the frame the pin sits on are what is out of alignment the fix will be much more involved, but maybe not out of the realm of possibility. Certainly getting the hammer to ride and strike in a more centered fashion is part of the road to proper function but there may end up being quite a bit of work involved in getting this thing running right.
 
It's not correct, but it now fires reliably

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5sFwvhcvR8jFN6WDA

I cleared the conflict between the firing pin and the frame and the hammer now travels closer to the frame. Ie. it rotates just a little bit more. That apparently allows the off center primer strike to reliably ignite the primer. I forgot to take a picture of the hammer with the trigger pulled before I cleared the conflict. But the hammer nos moves closer to the frame and the pin no longer ,makes contact with any part of the frame.

20211229_214242.jpg

The primer strikes are still way off center

20211229_214117.jpg

But I can continue with load development. This one may go bang, with a projectile, this weekend.

I suspect that eventually the firing pin will fail, so I still need ideas for a correct fix. If I must take it apart, then so be it.

RevolvingGarbage said:
Is there side to side play of the hammer on its pivot pin? Perhaps thin shims could be put on the hammer pivot pin on one side or both to align it to strike more in the center of the firing pin hole?

RevolvingGarbage said:
Is there side to side play of the hammer on its pivot pin? Perhaps thin shims could be put on the hammer pivot pin on one side or both to align it to strike more in the center of the firing pin hole?

If the hole in the hammer or the holes in the frame the pin sits on are what is out of alignment the fix will be much more involved, but maybe not out of the realm of possibility. Certainly getting the hammer to ride and strike in a more centered fashion is part of the road to proper function but there may end up being quite a bit of work involved in getting this thing running right.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

There is no sign of play in the hammer. You and @Jackrabbit1957 are thinking the same thing. But it is pretty apparent that the firing pin is not attached squarely on the face of the hammer. There may be hammer play involved but this part has to be fixed before moving on to that.
 
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