Returning Fire In a Street Shooting You Aren’t the Target Of

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That wasn't a drive by shooting. This was a drive by shooting:

Did I say it was a drive by shooting? NO! But it's the same thing, you are minding your own business and a gang shooting you aren't involved in occurs.

returning fire would of course be questionable and situationally dependent here.

When does the situation dictate you jump into the fray?

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Did I say it was a drive by shooting? NO! But it's the same thing, you are minding your own business and a gang shooting you aren't involved in occurs.
It was literally in the first words you typed in your original post: "In another thread a member mentioned returning fire if he was unfortunate enough to be where a drive by shooting was happening."
When does the situation dictate you jump into the fray?
It's a hypothetical. In this situation that I presented it wouldn't be warranted as the vehicle had moved into and out of the kill zone too quickly. Simply seeking the nearest cover would be appropriate. HOWEVER, if the vehicle had stopped itself in the kill zone in order to deliver well aimed fire, returning fire might have been warranted depending on a number of factors including your proximity to the incoming fire. If I wasn't "in the crosshairs" and I had good solid cover, I wouldn't break that cover to engage as it would just turn me into a target and I might even consider putting more distance between myself and the assault vehicle if it could be done reasonably safely.
 
present day America is going to start looking like that scene from Predator 2 when everyone on the subway pulls a gun.
 
If we shoot to stop the threat (and we always should) if you were involved in a drive-by or....what is the original, a 'melee shooting'?, you'd need to:
  • Know who the attacker was (not easy if you don't see the first shot being fired)
  • Believe you could stop the attack with a reasonable number of shots fired
  • Feel confident your chances of stopping the attacker were *much* higher than your chances of hitting an innocent
Almost none of those would be possible with a 'melee' shooting, and #2 is going to be tough with a drive-by. I once trained with a multi-time national and world champion IPSC Grandmaster, and he stated he'd fired at a drive-by shooter only to 'get him to move along' after the shooter stopped and was laying down rounds. (The returned round struck the a-pillar, much better than most of us would likely do)

Larry
 
HOWEVER, if the vehicle had stopped itself in the kill zone in order to deliver well aimed fire, returning fire might have been warranted depending on a number of factors including your proximity to the incoming fire.

Kill zone? Really? So you set up a near ambush? Are they delivering well aimed fire at you? If not why would you engage? I can see the headline now. Armed citizen stops drive by shooting Even if the press doesn't publish your name you're making yourself a target for retaliation. If it's not your job to intervene why would you even consider it if it wasn't necessary to protect your life? Why stick your head up from behind cover? You don't have the rest of your squad with you to help you gain fire superiority.
 
Kill zone? Really? So you set up a near ambush? Are they delivering well aimed fire at you? If not why would you engage? I can see the headline now. Armed citizen stops drive by shooting Even if the press doesn't publish your name you're making yourself a target for retaliation. If it's not your job to intervene why would you even consider it if it wasn't necessary to protect your life? Why stick your head up from behind cover? You don't have the rest of your squad with you to help you gain fire superiority.
No, you find yourself caught in a near ambush of sorts however. Since, as you said, you don't have the rest of your squad with you to throw grenades at the enemy and assault though the objective, your strategy has to be modified to immediately seeking cover and beyond that the situation will evolve and dictate your next moves and you're at the mercy of fate.

Your immediate goal would be to seek cover. We all agree on that. But that doesn't mean you should hide behind a vehicle's engine block and close your eyes and try to retain control of your bodily functions until it's all over. If you're carrying, you should prepare to fight if necessary and try to remain situationally aware to the maximum extent possible. Situational awareness is always critical but especially when unknown people are shooting around you/near you for unknown reasons.

Seeking the closest bestest cover is your top priority here. Exposing yourself from good solid cover should only happen if necessary to save your own life.
Numerous people were shot by Charles Whittman during the University of Texas Tower Shooting when they broke cover for various reasons including leaving cover/concealment to aid others or for having sub-optimal cover.
Paul Bolton Sonntag-They took refuge behind a construction barricade, but when Sonntag abruptly stood, Whitman shot him in the mouth, killing him instantly. Claudia Rutt tried to reach Sonntag as Wheeler attempted to restrain her; a shot passed through Wheeler's left hand and struck Rutt in the chest.
Roy Dell Schmidt-Schmidt took cover with others behind his car some 500 yards (460 m) from the tower, but after about 30 minutes stood up in the belief he was out of range, and was immediately shot in the abdomen.
Billy Paul Speed-At 12:08 pm, Patrolman Speed was with another officer and others behind decorative balusters on the South Mall when he was shot through a gap in the masonry.

If it becomes necessary to break cover in order to move to a new position for whatever reason, it would be best if you had a buddy that was covering your movement. That's a good reason to carry a BUG right there btw, so you can hand it to your wife or whoever.
 
But that doesn't mean you should hide behind a vehicle's engine block and close your eyes and try to retain control of your bodily functions until it's all over. If you're carrying, you should prepare to fight if necessary....
Of course, "necessary" means that fighting is the only way to avoid death or serious harm.
 
I can see this being a great idea if all these are true:
-You can't possibly get away or find cover.
-Yelling "the police are coming" doesn't make them stop shooting.
-You shoot at both sides since you don't know who the good guys are.
-You wait as long as possible in hopes they're running low on ammo.
-You have a minimum of 2 rounds of ammo for each person you're shooting at (you know, cause everyone knows most gunfights end within the first 2 shots)
-Nobody on this earth means anything to you, since most of the likely outcomes from involving yourself in this situation result in the end of life as you know it.

Seriously, I can't envision a scenario in which I'd feel compelled to join in.
 
No, you find yourself caught in a near ambush of sorts however.

Are you the target of the drive by? If you aren't you are not in an ambush. You are a bystander. If you are in the kill zone of a near ambush you aren't taking cover you're attacking into the ambush. You're getting your battle drills mixed up here. Were you an 11B?

You're switching tactics from React to Contact to React to an Ambush and your response to take cover isn't doctrinally sound for either a near or far ambush.

Exposing yourself from good solid cover should only happen if necessary to save your own life.

When is it going to be necessary to save your life in a situation that is over with in a few seconds? Did the gangbangers dismount and flank you?

There is very little in FM 7-8 that is applicable to anything you are going to encounter on the mean streets in CONUS. You're giving examples from the Texas Tower shooting where a trained marksman was shooting from an elevated position. That is a very different situation then we are discussing here.

If it becomes necessary to break cover in order to move to a new position for whatever reason, it would be best if you had a buddy that was covering your movement. That's a good reason to carry a BUG right there btw, so you can hand it to your wife or whoever.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Are you really suggesting that you should carry a BUG to arm someone around you so that you can fire and maneuver your way out of the area? Are you sure an Australian Peel wouldn't be more effective?:what::what::what::what::what::what:

We try to keep the discussion reality focused here. Do you and your wife practice bounding overwatch often? Or maybe you or "whoever" train together? What exactly do you envision here? Are you really suggesting that you and some bystander are safely behind cover and you're just goi8ng to hand that person a gun and say; "Here you go buddy, I'm going to run to that position over there, cover me while I move!" ? What movie did you see that in?
 
Of course, "necessary" means that fighting is the only way to avoid death or serious harm.
Necessary means whatever your state's laws say it means.
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Necessary means whatever your state's laws say it means.
In all US states and territories, it means immediately necessary to avoid death or serious harm to oneself, or under some circumstances, to a third person. It means that no other course of action would suffice.
 
Are you the target of the drive by? If you aren't you are not in an ambush. You are a bystander. If you are in the kill zone of a near ambush you aren't taking cover you're attacking into the ambush. You're getting your battle drills mixed up here. Were you an 11B?
First of all, I'm having a reasonable discussion here that pertains to strategies, tactics and training and you're just inching closer and closer to outright ad hominem. I'm sorry you can't have a reasonable discussion with me without resorting to the typical internet fight club tactics. I thought this was called the High Road because we didn't take the low road but you do seem like you're veering off onto the low road. I would just encourage you to keep the dialectic civil and get back on the high road.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Are you really suggesting that you should carry a BUG to arm someone around you so that you can fire and maneuver your way out of the area? Are you sure an Australian Peel wouldn't be more effective?:what::what::what::what::what::what:
I would suggest that there is no other reason to carry a BUG. Way to stay on the High Road there. The emoticons seem really mature and thoughtful.
You're switching tactics from React to Contact to React to an Ambush and your response to take cover isn't doctrinally sound for either a near or far ambush.
because this isn't a war zone, it's a city street and tactics will have to be modified as I already stated very plainly and which you have chosen to ignore because you are looking to take the low road.
When is it going to be necessary to save your life in a situation that is over with in a few seconds? Did the gangbangers dismount and flank you?
I don't know. Did they? That's what we're talking about isn't it?
There is very little in FM 7-8 that is applicable to anything you are going to encounter on the mean streets in CONUS. You're giving examples from the Texas Tower shooting where a trained marksman was shooting from an elevated position. That is a very different situation then we are discussing here.
No, you're just wrong. again. The examples I gave clearly illustrate the importance of seeking cover and the danger of leaving it.
We try to keep the discussion reality focused here.
No. YOU try to keep the discussion focused on YOU. I try to keep the discussion focused on strategies, tactics and training.
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Are you really suggesting that you and some bystander are safely behind cover and you're just goi8ng to hand that person a gun and say; "Here you go buddy, I'm going to run to that position over there.

I'm suggesting that, unless you're carrying a real piece of crap, there's really no other reason to carry a BUG other than to hand it off to someone else in an emergency and even if you can imagine some other reason, it isn't as good as this reason.
 
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When and where did you serve, for how long? You're reference to Infantry tactics are right of a book and have no relationship to real life. They don't make your suggestions seem any more valid.

Frankly every post you are making in these threads always leads to a situation where you get to shoot. That is exactly the impression you a leaving. I would sincerely hope you really aren't as anxious to get in a gunfight as you seem to be here. The antis have a stereotype of CCW holders and your posts here fit it to a tee. That stereotype is of someone who makes his whole life about the fact he carries a gun and who goes through life just looking for a reason to shoot someone. In your posts it's never good enough to just keep your head down and survive, you always have to add, unless (fill in the blank happens) then I will engage.

I'm suggesting that, unless you're carry a real piece of crap, there's really no other reason to carry a BUG other than to hand it off to someone else in an emergency and even if you can imagine some other reason, it isn't as good as this reason.

This says about everything we need to know about your experience and training. First off all guns, even expensive ones, even AKs and Glocks can malfunction. Secondly, carrying a BUG where you can access it with your weak hand gives you many options in a close quarters fight where your gun hand might be tied up. I carried a .38 snubby either a Colt Agent or a S&W J Frame as a BUG for my entire LE career. I normally carried it on the inside of my left ankle where I could access it from either hand. If it was winter time and I was wearing boots it was in a pocket on my weak side. I couldn't get to it with either hand then but I could still get it with my weak hand if my strong hand was disabled otherwise occupied. Oddly enough I did arm an off duty officer who I was giving a ride home when a hot call came in and she told me she was unarmed, rather then stop and let her out before responding I handed her my BUG. Nothing happened, the call was handled without gunfire or even the need to draw a weapon. The big difference is that she was a fellow officer, I knew the training she had and her skill level. That is much different then handing off a weapon to a bystander or even your wife if she hasn't had any training. Seriously, how would you feel if you wife was shot down trying to provide covering fire while you maneuvered?
 
I'm suggesting that, unless you're carrying a real piece of crap, there's really no other reason to carry a BUG other than to hand it off to someone else in an emergency and even if you can imagine some other reason, it isn't as good as this reason.
That is ridiculous.
 
So you say but you've provide no better alternative so...
For me, a backup can serve in the event of a failure; in the event the primary is dropped or taken; to be accessed when the primary cannot; or when using it is faster than reloading.

I do not fantasize about handing a gun to someone else.

Police officers do not carry backup guns for that purpose.
 
Whatever.

You're the guy talking about"returning fire" on people who aren't even shooting at you.
 
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