Cutting the frame for a loading gate, and legality.

noelf2 said:

I don't deal in hypotheticals. Simple logic, and about a dozen ATF inspector opinions (whose names I could get if needed), gives me all the assurance that "I" need.

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Your ATF inspectors' opinions would mean nothing in a gun-hater state like Illinois. And it would be little consolation to me if I got slammed with a violation here. People here have done time for less, including forfeiting their right to a FOID card, which pretty much means "Game Over" for a gun owner.
Suit yourself. It's your right as an American. However, I would caution against giving advice like this on a forum setting to those who might take it as gospel and possibly be penalized for it.

Captain*kirk said:

Your ATF inspectors' opinions would mean nothing in a gun-hater state like Illinois. And it would be little consolation to me if I got slammed with a violation here. People here have done time for less, including forfeiting their right to a FOID card, which pretty much means "Game Over" for a gun owner.
Suit yourself. It's your right as an American. However, I would caution against giving advice like this on a forum setting to those who might take it as gospel and possibly be penalized for it.

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In Illinois the state treats the C&B revolver as a firearm period. Doesn't mater if it's converted, has a gate or not.
The OP specifically indicated they were referring to Federal requirements not State or local requirements.
It is well known that Illinois takes a more zealous approach.
This is pretty cut and dry in most of the rest of the country.

Malachi Leviticus Blue said:

In Illinois the state treats the C&B revolver as a firearm period. Doesn't mater if it's converted, has a gate or not.

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Absolutely correct.
My point exactly.

grter said:

It's the fact that the frame was modified with the intent and purpose of facilitating cartridge loading in a gun that can now fire cartridges.

In essence a firearm has been manufactured.

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Wrong. Cutting the loading port is not what allows the gun to fire cartridges. The installation of the cartridge cylinder, with or without a loading port, is what constitutes "manufacturing a firearm".

It's rather comical. The gunsmith who does this for a living, who has a gunsmith's FFL and has had many conversations with the ATF about this very subject, including the many years of in-person inspections by ATF agents, says one thing. Internet theorists who do not have an FFL, who do not do this for a living, who have never spoken at length to the ATF about this subject think they somehow know better.

And round and round and round she goes.

noelf2 said:

Yeah. Getting very redundant. If I could lock it, I would.

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All you have to do is stop yourself.

It's kind of hard to conscientiously let flat out misinformation stand on a respected forum.
I'm sure there are some mistaken folks who think that's what they are doing repeating "old wives tales" as well, however none of the claims here of the opinion that a loading gate creates a firearm have pointed to any federal law stating such.

See Federal Law cite below -

If the revolver in question meets either A or B or C below it is an antique firearm

Most of us are referring to either B or C below depending on whether you believe a C&B revolver is a muzzleloding pistol or not.

A C&B revolver has NOT been designed or redesigned for using fixed ammunition if it can't use fixed ammunition. Therefore a replica C&B revolver with a percussion cylinder is an Antique Firearm.

18 USC Ch. 44: FIREARMS
§921. Definitions

(16) The term "antique firearm" means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or


(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

I have a question before Gary Lee Barnes sends his customer their Kirst converted revolver back does he enter it into his bound book?

This topic, again?

You know what would solve this argument? A letter to the ATF and a written response from them.

I'm of the opinion that cutting the frame does not turn it into a firearm but a letter from the ATF would say who's right and who's wrong.
At least until they change their minds...

shootemup58 said:

I have a question before Gary Lee Barnes sends his customer their Kirst converted revolver back does he enter it into his bound book?

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I don't know but I'll bet he ships the revolver and cylinder separately.

hawg said:

I don't know but I'll bet he ships the revolver and cylinder separately.

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He does. If he ships it with the percussion cylinder, all laws are satisfied. If it is shipped as a cartridge revolver, it's a modern gun and would have to be treated as such.

I have to admit, I actually like the looks of an Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon with a custom, oversize capping channel. Makes seating caps in the winter or with oversize mechanical capper's a breeze

You know I wouldn't mind "oversized capping channels" on all my C&B revolvers.

I added a standard size cap channel to one of mine, but that oversize would be easier to cap with old fingers

drobs said:

You know I wouldn't mind "oversized capping channels" on all my C&B revolvers.

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drobs said:

This topic, again?

You know what would solve this argument? A letter to the ATF and a written response from them.

I'm of the opinion that cutting the frame does not turn it into a firearm but a letter from the ATF would say who's right and who's wrong.
At least until they change their minds...

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I believe that’s what Gary has done.

drobs said:

You know I wouldn't mind "oversized capping channels" on all my C&B revolvers.

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Me either, these big old fingers and thumbs have a heck of a time with little bitty caps in little bitty spaces,

Wait what. there is a determination letter out there why hasn't the OP shone us this he seems to know Mr Barnes business dealings

noelf2 said:

Some of us know his dealings because we've dealt with him. His permitted quote is all most of us need, I mean, his license and business is at stake so he actually needs to know. If you or others need more, get more (although it probably won't change some minds anyway, as silly myths can be persistent).

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"He said she said" from his ATF inspector is not the same thing as a determination letter.
If he has a letter he should post it up.

noelf2 said:

"Inspectors". About a dozen of them. Why bother? I'm sure he doesn't really care what others do or think. Besides, if he was doing something wrong, he would have been corrected, shut down, or both, at least a dozen times. Good enough for me. If not for you, then write a letter to the ATF.

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So far you're the only one claiming he has one and you've done it repeatedly through this whole thread. Just sayin.