THINK First!

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Kleanbore

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We had a thread recently about a man who drew his gun and confronted an alleged shoplifter in a liquor store. He ended up following the man outside, where there was a scuffle. The man with the gun was disarmed and killed with it.

Car-jackings are on the rise, and a Lyft driver was recently victimized in Philadelphia. He was able to get his passenger safely out of his car. But after the car had been taken by one car-jacker and the other perp was driving his own car, the Lyft driver drew a firearm and opened fire on them, wounding both, who were apparently fleeing felons.

An argument over child custody led a man in Texas to go into his house and return with a firearm. A scuffle ensued, and the man with a gun killed another man. His case is now the subject of a criminal investigation.

All of these shootings were avoidable, and none of them represented the prudent use of deadly force. All may well have involved the unlawful use of firearms.

To these we can add the recent killing that occurred during an attempted citizen's arrest in Georgia. Three men are now serving life terms.

The common thread seems to be a failure in judgment and a lack of restraint.

When I started carrying a firearm over thirteen years ago, a former police officer friend who had been in law enforcement for a long time said to me "the ONLY time my gun is coming out is when I am ABOUT TO DIE!" He had been sharing stories of civil and criminal investigations in which he had been involved over the years that had to do with officer-informed gun incidents.

I have never forgotten that.

The best thing to do is to always avoid situations that might lead to a confrontation. Do not go outside to investigate a possible miscreant. Do not get involved in someone else's trouble. Do not think of yourself as "the good guy". Do not display or mention your firearm unless and until you are about....
 
I guess these conversations happen everywhere gun enthusiasts gather, too often threads here sound like members are looking for a reason to use their weapon. I suppose that's natural. Most people who legally carry guns for self defense consider themselves one of the good guys. It's only natural for people new to carrying a gun to imagine themselves using it and being the hero and saving the day. Every rookie cop has the fantasy of standing in line at the bank when the armed robber comes in and he pulls his off duty weapon, foils the robbery, the bank presents him with a new car and the chief pins a medal of valor to his chest. However, the rookie cop has an advantage over most armed citizens. The rookie cop soon gets a real world, in your face introduction to violence and the legal system. The armed citizen, if he's lucky, never gets that. The rookie officer quickly learns that most situations are much more complicated then they appear at first glance. That's why most people with that kind of experience preach Don't get involved, don't draw your weapon unless you are going to need it to save your life.
 
See this? These are heroes:

Arlington_National_Cemetery.jpg


Few if any of them lived into old age.


See this? This is the medal of Honor.

TTU4VNHM2ZGXDMUHAVTYYHEYXU.jpg
The vast majority of these are given out posthumously.
 
Kleanbore,
I live in NJ, so no chance of ever being able to carry off my property, but that is sage advice that I would apply even as it relates to home carry.
 
[QUOTE="Kleanbore, post: 12174575, member: 74540.

The common thread seems to be a failure in judgment and a lack of restraint.

When I started carrying a firearm over thirteen years ago, a former police officer friend who had been in law enforcement for a long time said to me "the ONLY time my gun is coming out is when I am ABOUT TO DIE!" He had been sharing stories of civil and criminal investigations in which he had been involved over the years that had to do with officer-informed gun incidents.

I have never forgotten that.

The best thing to do is to always avoid situations that might lead to a confrontation. Do not go outside to investigate a possible miscreant. Do not get involved in someone else's trouble. Do not think of yourself as "the good guy". Do not display or mention your firearm unless and until you are about....[/QUOTE]


@Kleanbore just gave the best advice anyone could give or receive. No need for me to repeat a word of it.
 
Got to bring up Curtis Reeves. Retired police captain shot a guy for throwing popcorn.

I agree 100%... think first. People need to exercise more. We dont need a bunch of road rage type mindsets combined with CCW.
 
We had a thread recently about a man who drew his gun and confronted an alleged shoplifter in a liquor store. He ended up following the man outside, where there was a scuffle. The man with the gun was disarmed and killed with it.

Car-jackings are on the rise, and a Lyft driver was recently victimized in Philadelphia. He was able to get his passenger safely out of his car. But after the car had been taken by one car-jacker and the other perp was driving his own car, the Lyft driver drew a firearm and opened fire on them, wounding both, who were apparently fleeing felons.

An argument over child custody led a man in Texas to go into his house and return with a firearm. A scuffle ensued, and the man with a gun killed another man. His case is now the subject of a criminal investigation.

All of these shootings were avoidable, and none of them represented the prudent use of deadly force. All may well have involved the unlawful use of firearms.

To these we can add the recent killing that occurred during an attempted citizen's arrest in Georgia. Three men are now serving life terms.

The common thread seems to be a failure in judgment and a lack of restraint.

When I started carrying a firearm over thirteen years ago, a former police officer friend who had been in law enforcement for a long time said to me "the ONLY time my gun is coming out is when I am ABOUT TO DIE!" He had been sharing stories of civil and criminal investigations in which he had been involved over the years that had to do with officer-informed gun incidents.

I have never forgotten that.

The best thing to do is to always avoid situations that might lead to a confrontation. Do not go outside to investigate a possible miscreant. Do not get involved in someone else's trouble. Do not think of yourself as "the good guy". Do not display or mention your firearm unless and until you are about....

Just read an article that explained it VERY well to me.

As a male ,it is VERY,VERY,VERY difficult to remove your ego from ANY confrontation.

That is a sure way to find yourself needing to draw a gun,or the use of some other form of force/self defense.

So look at strapping on a gun as a great excuse to NEVER allow your ego to intercede in ANY confrontation.

Big issue will be if your confronted and not allowed to leave.

There are a million [ or more ] versions of this and no way can all be covered with a way out.

So EXTREME situational awareness is called for.

How many of you actually watch your '6' when shopping and loading the car [ and if you are about to say its all on your ole lady,shame on you ].

If your being real,the only way to truly avoid a car jacking is to see it coming.

At the very least a confronted car jacker will have doubts as he dont know your skills,or if your healed.

Retied cop here,and feel very comfortable being armed.

But before I draw my hogleg,I had better have exhausted all other means of S/D.

Especially discretion ---------- the better part of valor in modern times.
 
So look at strapping on a gun as a great excuse to NEVER allow your ego to intercede in ANY confrontation.
That is the way I have seen it for a long time.

Avoidance is a big part of my current lifestyle. I had a friend that wanted to get some little dessert pie single things at food lion and he only thought about it when he saw the food lion and wanted me to stop there. I told him Hell No and that there's another one just a few miles away and that is the only food lion I will go in around here. lol My friend is a cop from out of state and he says, "what the hell are you worried about?". I told him everything. lol I don't need to be around certain people whose instinct is to stare at everyone that walks by them trying to punk people out. There is only one gas station around where I live that I will go to because at almost all the others, you could be filling up minding your own business and some car filled with idiots will pull in to the pump next to yours with concert level bass shaking the surrounding earth... just ridiculous... and I usually have my dog with me. I usually only fill up gas at Sam's club about 40 miles away, but sometimes I'll be blade running and need a gallon just to get to Sam's... that is the only reason I even get any gas in the town closest to where I live.

Whenever there is bad weather, I say to myself, "what do I need from Lowes or Walmart?"... cause I won't go to any of those stores unless it is very early in the morning, raining or, like lately, COLD!! The cold weather in my state is like a crime deterrent, which I don't understand cause I grew up in NYC where the cold didn't put that much of a dent in crime. lol
 
That is the way I have seen it for a long time.

Avoidance is a big part of my current lifestyle. I had a friend that wanted to get some little dessert pie single things at food lion and he only thought about it when he saw the food lion and wanted me to stop there. I told him Hell No and that there's another one just a few miles away and that is the only food lion I will go in around here. lol My friend is a cop from out of state and he says, "what the hell are you worried about?". I told him everything. lol I don't need to be around certain people whose instinct is to stare at everyone that walks by them trying to punk people out. There is only one gas station around where I live that I will go to because at almost all the others, you could be filling up minding your own business and some car filled with idiots will pull in to the pump next to yours with concert level bass shaking the surrounding earth... just ridiculous... and I usually have my dog with me. I usually only fill up gas at Sam's club about 40 miles away, but sometimes I'll be blade running and need a gallon just to get to Sam's... that is the only reason I even get any gas in the town closest to where I live.

Whenever there is bad weather, I say to myself, "what do I need from Lowes or Walmart?"... cause I won't go to any of those stores unless it is very early in the morning, raining or, like lately, COLD!! The cold weather in my state is like a crime deterrent, which I don't understand cause I grew up in NYC where the cold didn't put that much of a dent in crime. lol

would have sent you a PT,but your blocked

I too was born & raised for 25 years in NYC,really a great education --- streetwise that is.
 
Situational awareness and even more so avoidance would curtail most discrepancies.

Call me a hermit but we don't go out after 5-600 pm. And we don't like that in the winter.

My wife and I live a very enjoyable life out in the sticks but mainly leave the "in town" traveling to day light hours, and keep our heads on a swivel.

Like it or not this is the world we live in.
 
The best thing to do is to always avoid situations that might lead to a confrontation.

Absolutely

Do not go outside to investigate a possible miscreant.

Wise advice


Do not get involved in someone else's trouble.

I can't wholly agree with this as a blanket statement.


Do not think of yourself as "the good guy".

But I am! However, I'm not "the good guy with a mission to right wrongs with a gun".


. Do not display or mention your firearm unless and until you are about....

"unless and until you are about...." Don't leave us in suspense. Can you finish that sentence?

In this thread, it seems evident that it's a tricky one and 'it depends' as to if you should announce.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/should-you-announce-that-you-are-armed.899458/
 
I lived in a county just north of the Bronx, Westchester, which was an affluent area with very low crime once you got away from the few urban areas there.

A friend who lived there, a construction worker who thought he was a tough guy, didn't understand the dynamics in the Bronx, where I worked in LE. We went down there to a good Italian restaurant, and he challenged people at a stop light, "what are you looking at?"

I told him this wasn't Westchester, people in the Bronx often didn't respond with words, they responded with bullets. He's like, "so, you have a gun", as if getting involved in a gunfight was nothing. He stopped, but my thought was to never go down there again with this idiot.
 
my thought was to never go down there again with this idiot.
I wouldn't.

Some time back. a man I know took issue with a man who threw a 1 liter bottle out of his truck. He ridiculed the man in front of of his young son.

When he came back out of the store, my friend found that his truck had been badly damaged. The man had rammed it repeatedly with a stolen truck. When he complained, I told him he was lucky he wasn't stuck with a knife.

That got him thinking.
 
I’ve said this before on this forum. My gun is for my and my families protection. It’s not my job to police the world. My job is to get home to my family every day.

I’ve been called selfish with that attitude and that’s fine. For those that want to intervene, be my guest but be careful as every situation is different. Ive personally seen a girl getting hit by her boyfriend and when a guy tried to intervene the girl turned on the Good Samaritan and helped her boyfriend beat him up. This is one screwy world
 
There aren’t a lot of things I can say with absolute certainty, but I’m pretty confident in saying if I ever shoot someone it will be because all the other possible options have failed. Putting aside any issues of morals or conscience, I know that even the most obviously justifiable shooting will likely cost thousands in legal fees. Shooting someone almost always comes with a huge price tag of one sort or another.
 
Shooting someone almost always comes with a huge price tag of one sort or another.
Part of that price will likely be the exclusion of you and yours from memberships, admissions, job offers, promotions, parties, and other invitations.

That is often reality,
 
Part of that price will likely be the exclusion of you and yours from memberships, admissions, job offers, promotions, parties, and other invitations.

That is often reality,
That would bother me less than the financial cost. I’m retired, and as W.C. Fields said I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would invite me :)
 
Once the fur stops flying and the scene is carefully examined, evidence gathered, statements taken, etc ... there usually comes a moment of belated hindsight clarity where the question, "How could this have reasonably been avoided?" passes through people's minds. That's not the sort of thing you want jurors, in either a criminal or a civil trial, being told they can ask themselves.

If you can avoid it, why the hell would any reasonable person not avail themselves of the opportunity to avoid it?

I'm no longer paid and expected to be thrust into the middle of such situations, so to a great extent 'trouble' is going to have to work very hard to find me, chase me down and then force me into situations where I have no option but to engage it.
 
That would bother me less than the financial cost. I’m retired, and....
I don't know anyone without prepaid coverage who would not be bothered by the financial cost of legal consultation after a shooting, and if the evidence gathered after the fact, which will be incomplete, is ambiguous, who could afford the legal fees, investigation costs, and expert witnesses needed.

But after all that, I don't know anyone who would want to be a pariah, or who would want his family to suffer.
 
Having judgment and restraint are not requisites for my God - given right to bear arms.

Therein may lay the quandary.
The news gives us frequent reminders that simply having rights doesn't give people the knowledge to exercise them wisely.

Fortunately that's not a state of affairs without a remedy.
 
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