38 Super is Super

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Blue Dot? I've been looking for Blue dot powder for over a year. No luck. I've heard of all sorts of good things about it for 10MM and Magnum loads. Maybe one day I'll be able to acquire some. I have seen mainly .355 out in FMJ, Cast bullets tend to have a choice between .355 and 356. Have you shot 38 Super +p with Cast bullets?

THX

CH
I used to use alot of Blue Dot in 38 Super, 38/45 Clerke, 357 Magnum, and maybe one or two cartridges that I do not remember at the moment. I've found powders for those cartridges that I like better than Blue Dot. I have a few loads that still use Blue Dot so I always have some on hand. Unfortunately these are trying times.

I've loaded cast bullets in the 38 Super, primarily round nose bullets. Appropriate bullet sizing and hardness still apply. Generally, I load a little below max. I have plans to try some 125 grain MP cast hollow points but I've not done any casting in a while.

As a side note, if I remember correctly, the trend in the firearms industry is to call 38 Super ammunition, "38 Super +P". This is to make a greater difference in nomenclature from 38 Auto or 38 ACP. 38 Auto and 38 Super share the same case dimensions. Guns chambered for 38 Auto cannot handle the pressures of 38 Super.

Most of the reloading data for 38 Super and 38 Super +P will have similar performance with the same bullets although the powders may differ. There some boutique loaders that sell 38 Super +P ammunition that generate higher velocity than the Industry standard velocities.

In normal conversation, most folks just call it 38 Super. Old habits are hard to change sometimes.
 
I used to use alot of Blue Dot in 38 Super, 38/45 Clerke, 357 Magnum, and maybe one or two cartridges that I do not remember at the moment. I've found powders for those cartridges that I like better than Blue Dot. I have a few loads that still use Blue Dot so I always have some on hand. Unfortunately these are trying times.

I've loaded cast bullets in the 38 Super, primarily round nose bullets. Appropriate bullet sizing and hardness still apply. Generally, I load a little below max. I have plans to try some 125 grain MP cast hollow points but I've not done any casting in a while.

As a side note, if I remember correctly, the trend in the firearms industry is to call 38 Super ammunition, "38 Super +P". This is to make a greater difference in nomenclature from 38 Auto or 38 ACP. 38 Auto and 38 Super share the same case dimensions. Guns chambered for 38 Auto cannot handle the pressures of 38 Super.

Most of the reloading data for 38 Super and 38 Super +P will have similar performance with the same bullets although the powders may differ. There some boutique loaders that sell 38 Super +P ammunition that generate higher velocity than the Industry standard velocities.

In normal conversation, most folks just call it 38 Super. Old habits are hard to change sometimes.
Chuck,

Thank you so much for the clarification on 38 Auto and 38 super. I've heard it called as you mentioned "38 Super." This made it difficult because the ammo I had was labeled 39 Super +p while the SARCO barrel titles it as "38 super." Naturally, I figured that the +p rating is just to account for a higher pressure. I had read elsewhere that manufacturers tend to water down the 38 Super +p rounds to keep from having issues if someone changers a +p round into a barrel not rated for it. I haven't seen a 38 ACP or 38 auto firearm outside of 1911's or older S&W's. I'm thinking they don't make them anymore, which for me is not necessarily a bad thing-I'd hate to get a 38 acp firearm and run 38 Super +p ammunition through it.

Because of the same dimensions, having a 38 super barrel there should be no issue chambering 38 auto or 38 acp as they have the same dimensions and have lower pressure? I only ask because I haven't seen barrels for sale labeled or labeled in the description "rated" for +p ammunition.

CH
 
I like the .38 Super but don't have any real reason to. I've never owned one that was reasonably accurate - either autos or revolvers - and the cartridge itself is snappy and loud. All of the guns I have owned which were chambered for it were either traded off or stolen, so I still have a thousand or so loaded rounds laying around - which of course means I need to buy another gun...
 
I like the .38 Super but don't have any real reason to. I've never owned one that was reasonably accurate - either autos or revolvers - and the cartridge itself is snappy and loud. All of the guns I have owned which were chambered for it were either traded off or stolen, so I still have a thousand or so loaded rounds laying around - which of course means I need to buy another gun...
The hunt must continue. ;-)
 
Because of the same dimensions, having a 38 super barrel there should be no issue chambering 38 auto or 38 acp as they have the same dimensions and have lower pressure? I only ask because I haven't seen barrels for sale labeled or labeled in the description "rated" for +p ammunition.

CH

You can shoot 38 Auto ammunition in your 38 Super, no problems. It is like shooting 38 Special in a 357 Magnum except the cases are exactly nthe same. 38 Auto may not cycle your gun depending on the recoil spring you have installed. A slight possibility.

As far as I know, the 38 Super +P has the same pressure rating as 38 Super in the SAAMI specs. Folks like Buffalo Bore work some magic to get extra velocity out of the ammunition.

I can't say I've ever seen a barrel marked +P. I have a 38 Super project in the works, I will check the new barrel that I bought last year for it and let you know.

Edit: To add to the last paragraph, a Kimber and Ed Brown barrels are marked "38 Super". The Colt barrels are marked "Super 38 Auto".
 
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I like the .38 Super but don't have any real reason to. I've never owned one that was reasonably accurate - either autos or revolvers - and the cartridge itself is snappy and loud. All of the guns I have owned which were chambered for it were either traded off or stolen, so I still have a thousand or so loaded rounds laying around - which of course means I need to buy another gun...

I can't speak for poor accuracy of 38 Super revolvers, but depending on the age of the barrels in the 38 Super semi-autos you shot, poor accuracy is a definite possibility.

Originally, 38 Super 1911 barrels were chambered for the cartridge to head space on the rim. With the semi-rim design of the 38 Super case, this did not lend itself to good accuracy.

Sometime in the late 1980's to early 1990's, some of the action pistol game competitors wanted the advantages of the 38 Super but needed better accuracy. They began chambering the barrels so that the case would head space on the case mouth. Accuracy improved greatly.

At least with 1911s, most if not all the manufacturers of barrels now chamber the barrels to head space on the case mouth.
 
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Technically, there is no such thing as simply .38 Super. The SAAMI manual does not list it. It has only the .38 Automatic (26,500 psi) and the .38 Super Automatic +P (36,500 psi). Their external dimensions are the same. They differ only in pressure limits.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

The +P designation was added to the .38 Super name in 1974 (according to the Speer Reloading Manual) to help distinguish between these cartridges because of their different pressures. There was no change in pressure in 1974 for the +P. It was a change in name only.

In general, today we refer to the .38 Super Automatic +P as simply the .38 Super. It's less words, and we are lazy.

The .38 Automatic we call the .38 Auto, or .38 ACP. But we hardly talk about it because the guns chambered for it (and ammo) are obsolete.

Tidbit: The .38 Super cartridge was not created in 1928/29 when the new Colt pistol was introduced. The name "super" referred to the gun, as it was named the "Super .38".
upload_2022-1-13_15-17-39.png

The gun was chambered for .38 Automatic. Guns and magazines at that time were stamped "38 Automatic" (See Sheldon's book, referenced below.). The .38 Super ammo came about a few years after that (around 1933) when the performance was increased a bit.

And in case you didn't know it, the .38 Automatic Colt Cartridge will stop any animal on the American Continent.

upload_2022-1-13_15-19-27.png


Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.
 
which of course means I need to buy another gun
Yes, absolutely.
read elsewhere that manufacturers tend to water down
I don't know if they're anymore watered down than any other non-specialty ammo in various calibers. I do know (or at least think I know, since it was relayed to me by a Sierra rep) that factory ammo and load data is developed to safely function in anything designated 38 Super. That includes 90 year old Colts that headspace off the semi-rim as well as newer versions that headspace off the case mouth but don't have fully supported chamber.
 
I have a Kimber Stainless LW 9mm with a 5" barrel. Has anyone converted one of these to 38 Super?

Just curious. It shoots 9mm and feels excellent, probably because it's LW (lightweight).

CH
 
Congratulations and welcome to the cognoscenti!

38 Super really is inexplicably pleasing. My theory, for what that is worth, is that it's rather like the 30-30: the inexplicable joy comes not from the cartridge itself, but from the combing of the punchy but lower recoil cartridge with the solidity, ergonomics, and heft of a 1911,just as the key to the 30-30 is its combination with light handy lever guns.

In any event, the 9mm for grown-ups is a treat. It's less abrupt than the 40 S&W, easier to handle than the 45 Colt, and more satisfying than the 9mm. Glad you are enjoying!!!
 
I have a Kimber Stainless LW 9mm with a 5" barrel. Has anyone converted one of these to 38 Super?

Just curious. It shoots 9mm and feels excellent, probably because it's LW (lightweight).

CH
Yes, except mine wasn't stainless. They're Wilson/Nowlin cut, so you'd need to get a barrel that was also. I know you can buy the Sig Sauer 5" barrel on eBay for like $50. Need a link and a pin, but that's what I put in my LW 9mm.

After I found out that it did better with near max and max loads, I got worried about how the aluminum frame would handle running it that hot. May have never been an issue but since I rarely carried it, I sold the Kimber and put the barrel in a steel frame Sig.
 
Yes, except mine wasn't stainless. They're Wilson/Nowlin cut, so you'd need to get a barrel that was also. I know you can buy the Sig Sauer 5" barrel on eBay for like $50. Need a link and a pin, but that's what I put in my LW 9mm.

After I found out that it did better with near max and max loads, I got worried about how the aluminum frame would handle running it that hot. May have never been an issue but since I rarely carried it, I sold the Kimber and put the barrel in a steel frame Sig.
On the search now. THX.
 
I haven't used Sport Pistol or BE-86, but have used most of the other powders you list to load the Super for years. I tend to use medium or slower powders in the Super, since I've never been much interested in lightly loaded ammo for this cartridge. N-105 comes highly recommended, but I've never run across any locally to try. I have used AA-9 to achieve results similar to what I've seen published for N-105. For the very heaviest loads with 124-147 grain bullets, AA-9 has proven excellent in my use for years now. I've only purchased Starline 38 Super Comp brass for reloading in recent years. Just excellent stuff. I sometimes use 38 Super brass retrieved after shooting factory ammo, but don't buy new or used Super brass, or use range pick-up brass of any kind.....ymmv

BTW, you might try something like the Winchester Q4318 9mm NATO to overcome lazy ejection in your 9mm ATI. The 9mm 1911s I've had all had the same weight slides as their .45ACP counterparts, and ejection can be lazy with more lightly loaded ammo. I've used thousands of rounds of 9mm Winchester and IMI NATO over the years. It just works.
Enjoy reloading for your Super.
Supers.JPG
 
N-105 comes highly recommended, but I've never run across any locally to try. I have used AA-9 to achieve results similar to what I've seen published for N-105. For the very heaviest loads with 124-147 grain bullets,
VV-N105 is awesome for 38 Super. I get an honest 1400fps. with a 124gr XTP in my 5" DW. AA#9 is also an excellent powder.
For target work with plated bullets I use Titegroup with good result.
 
ok. I just received my Sig 38 Super barrel today. It is a direct fit for the Kimber 9mm LW in Arctic white. Got all the parts and pieces, so I will be putting it together and probably getting it out to the range next week.

Also, finally got the 38 Super dies I ordered and put together a batch of 50 38 super auto rounds using 130 grain berry's bullets and HS-6. I didn't use the +p recipe options on the Hodgdon site because they didn't have the 130grain projectiles in their database. But, they are still estimated to be ~1100 fps.

They did have recipes using 115 and 124 grain projectiles running at speeds >1200fps. I'll be looking at WSF then probably Alliant in BE-86 and Power pistol in the future.

I'll post some pics and compare it against the ATI.

Thanks for the ideas and recommendations all.

CH
 
I didn't use the +p recipe options on the Hodgdon site because they didn't have the 130grain projectiles in their database. But, they are still estimated to be ~1100 fps.

There is no difference between 38 Super and 38 Super +P. See post 32.

Hodgdon's 38 Super and 38 Super +P data are both loaded to the same pressures. Therefore, there are no " +P " recipe options.
 
There is no difference between 38 Super and 38 Super +P. See post 32.

Hodgdon's 38 Super and 38 Super +P data are both loaded to the same pressures. Therefore, there are no " +P " recipe options.
I have read the post and understand, but the Hodgdon website has the option for selection 38 super auto or 38 super auto +p when looking for different bullet/powder combinations. In the Super Auto, they list 130 gr, while in the Super Auto +p they don't list a recipe for 130gr projectiles. Alliant conforms to what was stated about there being no difference. Unfortunately, Hodgdon does not and still lists them separately, which is why I posted my response.

CH
 
I have read the post and understand, but the Hodgdon website has the option for selection 38 super auto or 38 super auto +p when looking for different bullet/powder combinations. In the Super Auto, they list 130 gr, while in the Super Auto +p they don't list a recipe for 130gr projectiles. Alliant conforms to what was stated about there being no difference. Unfortunately, Hodgdon does not and still lists them separately, which is why I posted my response.

CH

I understand. However, Hodgdon's " +P " data using WSF is just a holdover from the Winchester load manual #14 (see page 46).
https://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Winchester/Winchester14.pdf

For reasons unknown Hodgdon didn't fold all the data into the 38 Super data. Although the WSF data is for generic bullets (no brand name), so that's part of it. All the other powders are for specific bullets and brands.

As long as you realize there is no difference between them, that's fine.
 
Thank you.

Chuck above posted some background on the initial differences and how it's come to be one and the same.

I really wanted to utilized the initial 130gr bullet since it seemed like it was made specifically for the 38 super. I wanted to keep the estimated FPS at 1100-1200 using the 130gr bullets. I already have a favorite in the 9mm being 124gr I just thought it would be good to keep the bullet weights close to what I initially fired my first 38 super +p rounds. Going for a repeatable experience at this stage.

Since my Kimber 9mm is LW (lightweight), even though Howland937 indicated that his functioned fine (the Kimber LW is rated for 9mm +p ammo, just not a steady diet according to Kimber) at the top loads but got concerned as it is LW.

I figure if I use bullet/powder combinations that keep the rated PSI between 35000 (9mm max) and 36500 (38 Super auto +p max), but still below the 9mm +p max @ 38500. I should be able to find a good combination on the 130gr bullet that can be used all the time on the Kimber 1911. If not, I have the ATI in 38 Super that does just fine.

I do have 1lb of WSF, which I was saving as my preferred powder for 40 S&W, but honestly HS-6 has better filled that need (for me). While I love how WInchester powders perform, their WST and WSF powders tend to be fluffy to the point where it gets everywhere. Its the only powder I use for 45 acp reloads. However, it does get messy when I use it.

Thanks again for the clarification. It is nice to dabble with a new caliber without having to purchase a whole new firearm.

CH
 
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