Cap & Ball 'Colt' 1873 SAA

Dark Skies

Dark Skies

Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
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508
Location
Oxfordshire England
Just added Pietta's take on the Colt 1873 SAA for the UK market - a cap and ball revolver.
Not historically accurate I know but we're limited in what we can buy in the UK since the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 practically banned modern handguns.

If we want a cartridge revolver it has to have a ridiculously long barrel and a horrible 'coat-hanger' like appendage jutting out of the butt to bring it within the realms of a carbine rifle.
What's to stop a legal owner going crazy and cutting off the coat-hanger and chopping the barrel in half? I hear you ask.
Absolutely nothing!
But British firearm laws aren't supposed to make sense - they're there to appease Joe and Jane Public, the newspapers, and let politicians be seen to be doing something about armed crime (which has no relationship to legal owners).

Anyhow here's my new toy. The cylinder's chambers have to be loaded out of the gun with a press. The ejector mechanism does nothing, it's just to keep it looking like the original Colt.
Colt SAA 1.jpg Colt SAA 2.jpg
 
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Whenever I get a new revolver I like to make a practical shooting box to store all the toot I'll need to shoot it at the range. This one has a lock.
I make them out of old cutlery boxes that can be partitioned.
Box 1.jpg Box 2.jpg Box 3.jpg

And yes, I noticed the smear of JB-Weld and have now removed it.
 
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Hello Dark Skies,

I have one of those also, but mine doesn't have a date code on it.
I contacted Pietta inquiring about a spare cylinder and date of manufacture,
they said it was out of production and cylinders for it were no longer available.
they did tell me it was manufactured in 2001.
Apparently new production is different from the early ones.

AntiqueSledMan.
 

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Although I haven't shot it yet, I'm told the base pin can be really difficult to remove once some fouling has taken place. You can buy a tool for about $30 from Brownells to grip it with. Or you can easily make your own like I did. I rummaged around in THAT drawer in the garage where everyone keeps junk "that might be useful one day" and found an old stainless steel knife from a camping cutlery set. It had handy slots in it so that the fork and spoon can clip together. By happy chance the slimmer part of the slot was exactly the right width. I simply cut the knife down and lengthened the slot a tad. Then I rounded off the ends and polished everything up so there wouldn't be any projections to mar the underneath of the barrel or ejector rod housing. Job done in less than ten minutes.
Tool1.jpg Tool2.jpg
 
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AntiqueSledMan said:
Hello Dark Skies,

I have one of those also, but mine doesn't have a date code on it.
I contacted Pietta inquiring about a spare cylinder and date of manufacture,
they said it was out of production and cylinders for it were no longer available.
they did tell me it was manufactured in 2001.
Apparently new production is different from the early ones.

AntiqueSledMan.
Click to expand...
Fancy looking piece!
That's annoying. Did they not offer a solution? Or tell you what the difference was? Could a new one be modified by a machinist?
Maybe the difference might not be a functional problem. Worth determining the difference.
 
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jdc1244 said:
One of the many disadvantages of living in a democracy as opposed to a Constitutional Republic.
Click to expand...
The difference in gun laws between the U.K. and the U.S. has to do with public attitudes and perceptions, not the form of government. Both countries are "democracies" but with different structures -- a federal republic vs. a parliamentary monarchy. The exact forms are not as important as the underlying philosophy.
 
"The difference in gun laws between the U.K. and the U.S. has to do with public attitudes and perceptions, not the form of government. Both countries are "democracies" but with different structures -- a federal republic vs. a parliamentary monarchy. The exact forms are not as important as the underlying philosophy."

We still have the right to keep and bear arms - it's enshrined in our Bill of Rights 1689 - which your Bill of Rights 1789 is based on. It's never been repealed.
The trouble is our politicians have conveniently cherry-picked the bits they like and ignored the rest. And we've let them get away with it for so long that it has just been accepted and eroded by new legislation.
Our firearms laws are made ad hoc - whenever there's an incident and the media kick off our politicians scurry around looking for some way to appease them with yet more pointless legislation. That said legally held firearms figure in firearm about as often as the pansies in my garden get eaten by unicorns. Tackling criminals is just too hard - so why not make firearms owners the scapegoat with some smoke and mirrors legislation?

Politicians are worms the world over. Somewhere in our evolution we decided con-men and professional liars ought to be our leaders. I'm still trying to work out how we let that happen. Along with the notion that people should be born into leadership purely based on being spat out of the right vagina.
Yeah, I'm not much of a royalist either. :)
 
gobsauce said:
You mind if I take a little inspiration from this? I hate that I never thought about using cutlery boxes.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Here's a handy tip - make a removable frame for the partitions to sit inside the box. It's a lot easier to work with on the bench and if you sell the gun you can simply reuse the box with a new interior frame to suit your next gun. I use ordinary pine batten held together with wood glue and pins. - I don't have any fancy cutting tools for proper cabinet making joints. Does the job though. I literally just make it up as I go along, putting items in place and juggling things around until I'm satisfied.

photo_2022-01-29_15-27-07.jpg
If you can't get hold of a handy cutlery box ... backgammon boxes are also great - here's mine for a Pietta Remington New Model Army.

bgm2.jpg bgm1.jpg
 
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They're simple to make. These are just intended to be shooting boxes rather than presentation boxes. They're going to get sooty and greasy. I don't usually take more than an afternoon to put one together. I have made a presentation box for my Pietta 1851 and it was very fiddly and time consuming (the felt layer was a pain) ... and it got sooty and greasy.
 
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Hello Dark Skies,

I believe my cylinder is larger than the new manufactured ones,
it measures about 1.875" long, and diameter is 1.68".
When I purchased it, my plan was to convert to cartridge.
But it would be quite a job, so I left it as is.

AntiqueSledMan.
 
AntiqueSledMan said:
Hello Dark Skies,

I believe my cylinder is larger than the new manufactured ones,
it measures about 1.875" long, and diameter is 1.68".
When I purchased it, my plan was to convert to cartridge.
But it would be quite a job, so I left it as is.

AntiqueSledMan.
Click to expand...
There MUST be a cylinder on a shelf somewhere, brand spanking new and just gathering dust. I'd trawl all the online gun shops dealing with BP and email shot 'em. Keep the faith. Maybe contact Pietta for a list they supply to in the US?
 
Very nice. I am enjoying a cup of English tea at the moment coincidently.

It’s sure a pleasant tea. Very nice gun I think it’s really cool and I’ll bet it’s fun to shoot!
 
It's a big no buy for me. I have no idea who came up with this conversion but he should have been fired by the company immediately as his expertise in firearms design is non existent.

If you take a look at any open top colt made with percussion ignition in mind there is a circular ring at the recoil shield. It's not for decoration but serves a critical purpose. Cylinder rotation mechanism in colts is very fragile compared to remington design where the notches responsible for interaction with the hand are cut in the flat base of the cylinder. The contact are is huge and flat. In colts there is a ratchet that is comparatively much more fragile as contact point with the frame is minimal and much more sharp. This necessities a separate contact point between the cylinder and the recoil shield so that the recoiling cylinder is stopped before a contact can be made between the ratchet and the frame. Hence the ring.

All that is unnecessary in a cartridge firing revolver because it is first and foremost the case that is moved back under recoil. Furthermore the case base then provides ciritical point of contact between cylinder and the frame. The strain on ratchet is minimal.

But what happens when you remove the cartridge from the equation and seal the chamber with a nipple? The recoil remains the same but now it is the whole cylinder moving backwards under recoil with no other contact point with the frame than the ratchet. The ratchet was never designed to sustain that kind of stress. It will be damaged overtime to a point the cylinder no longer spins. Long before that you will observe timing issues and excessive cylinder gap.

It is a novice gun designer mistake and I am amazed that for all these years it has not been fixed. Fix is very simple. All that is necessary is that old fashoned supporting ring on the recoil shield from 18651 or 1860 colt.

upload_2022-1-31_1-48-44.jpeg
Here is the ring I keep talkin about.

pol_pl_Beben-kapiszonowy-Remington-44INOX-Pietta-A432-IX44-1325_2.jpg
Remie '1858 cylinder base can hit that recoil shield all day long with no damage as it is as flat as Earth was believed to be in the Middle Ages.

Bebenek-do-rewolweru-cp-uberti-cattleman-kal-44-blk-0448005-dol.jpg

That ratchet though... It was never supposed to be a sole contact point with the frame.

keGNCkQTs7MAk-uPtY6k2X-2nxFHCNKB8w9to9r4ALE.jpg

That's the kind of stress I'm talking about. You can clearly see that in the original design the recoil shield ring was intended to take all that beating. Not the ratchet! Also you can see that brass does not do well in dealing with severe stress.
 

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Interesting point. It's covered by under warranty. I'll keep an eye out for it and count the rounds so I can gauge any rate of deterioration. If it becomes an issue I can get it fixed and trade it for something else. That said, these are very popular in the UK and I've not heard of any issues on UK forums.

I notice that Uberti have gone with the same setup. There's a video here.
 
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Ok, the ratchet isn't against the recoil ring, it's the material between the nipples. So, the ratchet doesn't touch anything.

In the case of the '73 cap gun, you'll notice the VAST flat area at the back of the cylinder in Somebody's picture above . . . THAT contacts the recoil shield. The ratchet has its own recess just like the cartridge revolver.

So, there ya go.

Mike

My apologies !!!
Ok, so I just happen to have a '73 percussion S.A. in the shop and I have it wrong!! The ratchet is in fact what supports the cyl. during recoil (don't trust an old man's memory!! Lol)!! The difference is in the thickness of the ratchet teeth. They are quite substantial compared to a normal cartridge cylinder ratchet.

So, there I go !!! Lol

20220130_222331.jpg

Notice how "robust " the teeth are on the cap cylinder. The example I have is by ASM.
I suspect the "saving grace" would be more shallow chambers . . . at least that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, that may be why the teeth look "less robust" in Somebody's pic above . . . obviously a different manufacturer.
 
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45 Dragoon said:
Ok, the ratchet isn't against the recoil ring, it's the material between the nipples. So, the ratchet doesn't touch anything.

In the case of the '73 cap gun, you'll notice the VAST flat area at the back of the cylinder in Somebody's picture above . . . THAT contacts the recoil shield. The ratchet has its own recess just like the cartridge revolver.

So, there ya go.

Mike
Click to expand...
Actually there's a big gap of daylight twixt the rear of the cylinder and shield at least 2.5mm and wiggling the cylinder fore and aft it's not budging. There's a slight click coming from the area where the ratchet teeth contact the shield. I'm hoping Pietta have taken it on board and toughened it in that area. Too late to worry about it now - I own it.
I'll not be hammering it anyhow. It's only got to push a ball twenty-five yards. I'll most likely be only using 15 grains of black powder.
 
45 Dragoon said:
Ok, the ratchet isn't against the recoil ring, it's the material between the nipples. So, the ratchet doesn't touch anything.

In the case of the '73 cap gun, you'll notice the VAST flat area at the back of the cylinder in Somebody's picture above . . . THAT contacts the recoil shield. The ratchet has its own recess just like the cartridge revolver.

So, there ya go.

Mike

My apologies !!!
Ok, so I just happen to have a '73 percussion S.A. in the shop and I have it wrong!! The ratchet is in fact what supports the cyl. during recoil (don't trust an old man's memory!! Lol)!! The difference is in the thickness of the ratchet teeth. They are quite substantial compared to a normal cartridge cylinder ratchet.

So, there I go !!! Lol

View attachment 1056107

Notice how "robust " the teeth are on the cap cylinder. The example I have is by ASM.
I suspect the "saving grace" would be more shallow chambers . . . at least that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, that may be why the teeth look "less robust" in Somebody's pic above . . . obviously a different manufacturer.
Click to expand...

It seems the ASM got it almost right. Sturdy ratchet might do the trick but the cylinder should be supported on something that is not critical to gun function nevertheless. Pietta / Uberti got it plainly wrong. The ratchet on their percussion guns is hardly any sturdier than in a cartridge gun. See:

soria%2FBebny_Uberti%2F0448005%2FBebenek-do-rewolweru-cp-uberti-cattleman-kal-44-blk-0448005-dol.jpg

It's a Uberti. This ratchet not only seems very fragile and weak but also is very fragile and weak and will wear off at a significant rate. The contact point with the recoil shield is not only laughably small but also not flat but sharp. Pietta might be a tad sturdier and have better angles.
 
Dark Skies said:
Actually there's a big gap of daylight twixt the rear of the cylinder and shield at least 2.5mm and wiggling the cylinder fore and aft it's not budging. There's a slight click coming from the area where the ratchet teeth contact the shield. I'm hoping Pietta have taken it on board and toughened it in that area. Too late to worry about it now - I own it.
I'll not be hammering it anyhow. It's only got to push a ball twenty-five yards. I'll most likely be only using 15 grains of black powder.
Click to expand...

Well, the ratchet is made of steel so it should have at least SOME strength. I am unsure how exactly this ratchet looks in Pietta but on above picture you see Uberti got it plainly wrong and the ratchet is not a tad sturdier than in their cartridge guns and will wear off at a significant rate. That being said 15 grains is a very light on the gun and should help with service life of your gun. Just don't shoot full power loads if you want the gun to last.

Ok, I found a pic of pietta's ratchet. It seems they have a better understanding of how revolvers amanage recoil than uberti because their ratchet is flat and a bit sturdier than Uberti which was plainly pathetic.

eng_pl_Pietta-1873-SA-Peacemaker-44-cal-Cylinder-ASAA5475-109464_4.jpg

But still, contact area is much smaller than in your remmy or open top percussion colt. It will work a bit longer than Uberti that's for sure but I wouldn't trust that ratchet at all with full power loads. Unlike Remmie or open top colt (where only recoil shield is subjected to wear during recoil), wear and tear to the ratchet will directly effect your gun operation and its timing.
 
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