Excessive Sig Parts Cost - Coiled Spring Pin $6.00? YIKES!

alfsauve · Feb 20, 2022

I realize most store don't carry individual parts, but then again, you might ask their gun smith. I've found some are willing to sell their parts at very reasonable prices. In fact the last time I asked for a S&W strain screw the smith just gave it to me.

Small parts are a high percentage overhead for handling and shipping. ~$5 isn't all that unreasonable for the time that's spent fulfilling an order with one small part. Been there. Done that from the retail end.

JDGray · Feb 20, 2022

JCJIM said:
In my last recent purchase a Sig P320, Sig Included a pack of Lucas Oil. so my bet thats the lube Sig uses

I have the recommend green Lucas grease for my 3 Sigs

Alllen Bundy · Feb 20, 2022

danez71 said:
How often do you plan on replacing it?

Every time I remove and replace the extractor. I've already removed and replaced the extractor 3 times since November of 2020. I will be removing and replacing the extractor at least two more times to finish some extractor testing that I'm performing. After that maybe once a year to do inspection, deep cleaning, and lubrication.

danez71 said:
Which lube are you using?

I bought a 4 oz tube of Mil-Comm TW25B synthetic grease and a 2 oz bottle of Mil-Comm MC2500 synthetic oil. It's not cheap. But I've also found other uses for the TW25B grease.

clutch said:
I suspect Sig puts a dollar value on having someone to process and pick your part. It is called overhead so maybe they are charging you .10 cents for the part plus 5.90 overhead.

If Sig can't make money selling a 10 cent coiled spring pin for a dollar they don't know how to run a business. If they are going to charge $6.00 they ought to be giving you more than just one pin.

clutch said:
I'm still waiting to use one of the roll pins that the striker will break in my XDM, I bought a bag of them cheap from McMaster so I'd be ready when I happened.

Are you actually talking about the pin breaking, or just wearing out?

JDGray said:
Drill bits are entirely too hard to be hammering on, buy a proper punch if you need to hammer on it.

If you need to actually hammer the coiled spring pin to remove it then you've got serious problems. You only need to tap very lightly to remove and replace the pin. If anything, the butt end of the drill bit is on the soft side. But I am looking for a good quality pin punch to keep in my range bag.

JDGray said:
You can clean most any firearm with compressed air, very simple.

I find it difficult to believe that you can blow out gun powder residue and contaminated grease and oil with compressed air. I don't believe that there is any way that you could have blown out the crap that I found in my RSA when I solvent cleaned it.

cfullgraf said:
Let's see. I buy a box of 100 roll pins for $10. I use one, maybe two over the life of the firearm. So, I have $9.90 invested in roll pins sitting on the shelf waiting until I need a second one. That assumes I do not lose the box of roll pins in the interim.

I've already used 3 coiled spring pins in 16 months. That would have been $18 from Sig. I spent $7.51 on a box of 50 pins. That is only $2.51 more than the cost of one pin from Sig and I didn't pay any shipping costs. So I have already SAVED $10.49 BEFORE shipping costs. I don't want to wait for spare parts to arrive.

tarosean said:
Pretty much... I am not buying 100 count of anything to use one or two. Storage space for the rest of my life is probably far more valuable.than the cost of a freakin Happy Meal.

The coiled spring pins are small and don't take up much space. All of the small spare parts that I use for my P365 fit into a quart sized zipper bag. Even you only used two roll pins, buying a box of 50 coiled spring pins would save you $2.49 before shipping cost. If you did not want to store them you could pitch the extras in the trash and still save money.

I find that more typically, if I need to buy a part once, it's likely that I will need to buy it again. Buying extra saves me time and effort and I don't need to wait for the part. If you have the parts on hand you won't be tempted to reuse the old spring pin.

danez71 · Feb 20, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
Every time I remove and replace the extractor. I've already removed and replaced the extractor 3 times since November of 2020. I will be removing and replacing the extractor at least two more times to finish some extractor testing that I'm performing. After that maybe once a year to do inspection, deep cleaning, and lubrication.

That seems excessive, to me.

Since you're using the strongest pin available and don't know what it is from Sig, have you considered the wear to the hole with so many R&Rs?

I doubt it was designed intended to be R&R so many times but if they did, the proper strength would be important to longevity.... yes, no?

Alllen Bundy · Feb 20, 2022

danez71 said:
Since you're using the strongest pin available and don't know what it is from Sig, have you considered the wear to the hole with so many R&Rs?

Yes, I have considered the wear from R&R. The coiled spring pin taps in so easily that the wear will be negligible, especially as I lube the hole and pin with synthetic grease before inserting the pin. Even if there was significant wear to the hole, the coiled spring pin adjusts to the hole size.

It would be nearly impossible for the coil spring pin to break in this application. The worst that could happen is that the extractor could wear through a thin spring pin layer. That is not very likely if you keep the extractor lubed. My biggest concern would be whether or not the 420 stainless steel alloy would wear any faster than the stock carbon steel coiled spring pin. But I will be replacing the coiled spring pin frequently enough just to inspect the extractor that I seriously doubt that any significant wear will occur to the coiled spring pin in that time frame. But being stainless steel I also don't need to worry about rust. As cheap as the extractor is, I'll also replace it long before it's likely to fail. But I will also be keeping tabs on the extractor hole wear.

I also keep tabs on the condition of my P365 by measuring things like the amount of force required to push the slide forward so that the extractor claw moves over the extractor groove in the shell case. My next test will be measuring the difference in force, between a polished and an unpolished extractor, required to close the slide over a shell case. I can feel a huge reduction in force required with the polished extractor. But I want to quantify the difference.

jct61765 · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
If you bothered to look at the photos you will notice that Sig mangled the coiled spring pin so badly that it was not inserted completely. That damaged coiled spring pin needed to be removed and replaced.

The P365 needs finishing work brand new right out of the box. The extractor is so sharp that it shaves brass off of the shell case which contaminates the lubrication. This sharp extractor also results in extra friction that increases the chances of the slide not returning to battery, The extractor needs polishing underneath the extractor claw. Brand new right out of the box if you retract the slide slightly it does NOT return to battery. Numerous people have found this to be the case. The left adjacent side to the breech face is so rough that it grinds brass off of the shell case rim. This added friction also exacerbates the failure to return to battery problem. And finally, the rough breech face needs polishing. Polishing the breech face allows the rear of the shell case to slide over the breech face more easily as the round is being chambered. If you polish these three things it greatly reduces the chance of the slide not returning to battery. In fact, after polishing I cannot return the slide slowly enough to prevent it the slide from going into battery. But right out of the box there is so much friction that the slide must be moving quickly enough or the slide will NOT chamber a round completely and return to battery.

I have no idea what kind of lube Sig uses at the factory and they do not specify. I am not going to use an inferior lubricant such as a CLP. So I disassemble, clean, polish parts, lube with a proven high quality synthetic lube, and then reassemble. You can use an inferior lube if you want to, but I prefer to use the best available that will still lubricate in subzero Minnesota winters.

Finally, I consider it important to polish the leading edge of the extractor. This polishing allows me to directly chamber a round with almost no stress to the extractor. It reduces friction so much that I can push the slide forward, forcing the extractor over the shell case rim, using the force from just my arthritic little finger. I don't need to be concerned about bullet setback from accidental multiple chambering of a round from the magazine because I manually chamber the first round instead of chambering from a magazine.

So yes, there is legitimate reason to remove the extractor. If you want to operate a P365 in less than optimum condition, that is your business. But I prefer to remove every potential problem that I am able to. My P365 is more likely to operate reliably under adverse conditions than a P365 right out of the box.

Because of the finishing work that I have performed, my P365 racks far more easily over a magazine loaded to capacity than a new Sig. My trigger is very smooth and not at all gritty like it was when it was new. My P365 requires less force to chamber a round than new P365. And yes, I actually measured the difference in the force required to chamber a round.

I'll put just as much care and effort into my P365 as I would when assembling an engine.

The ability to inspect parts is sufficient reason to completely disassemble a firearm. I would rather take the time to find potential problems before they become actual problems.

Why on earth would you want to pay $6.00 for a 10 cent part? I spend the money where it is more useful, such as on synthetic gun lube.

Obviously, you have no concept of manufacturing. Sig literally spent millions of dollars developing the 365, actually any gun. Do you really think someone is there with a punch installing these pins? They are building between 50,000 to 60,000 p365s a month. At least they were over a year ago when I worked there. They use a machine to install them into the gun. I have never heard of one falling out. As for your spring. Whats the tensile strength? What's it made of? Do you even know? That spring was designed for that gun by someone smarted than you. You're an armchair gunsmith that really has no idea what you are doing or changing. Did you put more than 10,000 rounds through that gun already? If you did, I applaud you. Chances are you didn't. That spring will fail at the worst possible time. As for using a drill bit to punch out a pin, that's just stupid. You're using a hardened piece of steel, you're going to wallow out that hole. Instead of cheaping out, buy the right tools. If you're going to play gunsmith, take some classes so you actually know what you're doing. Chances are you wont because you sound cheap. I've worked for 4 major gun companys over 20 years. Sig Sauer for 8. I am now at Kimber. I have a better idea than you do about about assembling and fixing guns.

Nature Boy · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
I've already used 3 coiled spring pins in 16 months.

Just adding some perspective here.

With the need to replace a pin that many times I assume you’re shooting a lot. Have you considered how insignificant the cost of the pin is compared to what you’re spending in ammo?

Master Blaster · Feb 21, 2022

You are paying for logistics, and convenience, that is what the $6 is for. Most folks just want an easy part replacement, not a research effort that leads to a huge bag of pins. You could also hit your local hardware store for a split roll pin.
Like another poster mentioned that pin from your SIG, may be specially heat treated, and the 20 cent one may not. So your cheap replacement may fail at the worst time.

tarosean · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
I bought a 4 oz tube of Mil-Comm TW25B synthetic grease and a 2 oz bottle of Mil-Comm MC2500 synthetic oil. It's not cheap. But I've also found other uses for the TW25B grease.

The irony is not lost.

How many rounds through the 365?

danez71 · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
I lube the hole and pin with synthetic grease before inserting the pin.

It seems counter intuitive to grease a pin thats designed to be held in place by friction.

And your reasoning to do so is to prevent wear during R&R of a part that shouldn't need or was designed to be R&Rd as do often?

And the reason you're doing it so often is (in part) because of your tests & to keep an eye on extractor damage from chambering in a way that Sig specifically told you not to do that way?

That's a rabbit hole I'll stay out of.

Good luck and keep us informed of updates.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

jct61765 said:
Obviously, you have no concept of manufacturing.

Nearly ever company that I have worked for has been a manufacturer. I've worked assembly lines, I've overseen assembly lines, I've done production line repair, I've done consumer repair, I've done test equipment calibration, I've been responsible for maintaining ISO standards within an engineering and product development lab, I developed manufacturing processes, I've done UL safety testing, I've worked in product development where I troubleshot new designs and corrected engineering mistakes, I've made numerous design changes to existing products, and I've designed new products. I've worked for companies whose quality control was Deming based.

I'm aware if nearly every kind of problem that can occur in a factory. There are very few problems that are not preventable with good process control and production worthy designs. I have seen insanely stupid things done in companies that are often pennywise and dollar foolish. I know where companies try to skimp on materials and labor.

jct61765 said:
As for your spring. Whats the tensile strength? What's it made of? Do you even know?

Dude, you are NOT paying attention. I posted this at the beginning of the discussion:

"Spring Pin, Coiled, Stainless Steel, 420, 3/32 in Outside Dia., 1/2 in Fastener Length, Double Shear Strength 1,150 lb - PK 50 $7.51"

Did you note the double shear strength of 1,150 lbs? Did you note that I specified 420 alloy stainless steel? Or perhaps you just aren't familiar enough with metal alloys to recognize 420 as a stainless steel alloy.

jct61765 said:
They use a machine to install them into the gun. I have never heard of one falling out.

None the less the coiled spring pin in my P365 was NOT correctly installed and it was mangled. My installation using a brass faced hammer, a 1/8" pin punch, and the butt end of the drill bit did NOT mangle the coiled spring pin and it was inserted to the correct depth. SIG has a production process problem. I do not.

jct61765 said:
That spring was designed for that gun by someone smarted than you.

Sez who? FYI, my IQ scores have averaged about 135. Most companies that I have worked for seem to think I'm smart and they have said so in written performance reviews.

jct61765 said:
You're an armchair gunsmith that really has no idea what you are doing or changing.

Sez who? You? Have you noted the testing that I've done on my P365?

jct61765 said:
That spring will fail at the worst possible time.

SIG did not design that coiled spring pin. There are only a few different companies making them and in total, for that size pin, there are 3 strengths made from carbon steel and 3 strengths made from 420 alloy stainless steel. I chose the strongest and more expensive stainless steel alloy pin. It's being used in a very non-demanding situation as a pivot. It could possibly wear out, but not likely before the extractor claw breaks from a stress fatigue failure. The chance that this pin could ever actually break in this application is nil to zero. The fact that I use perhaps the best synthetic grease to lubricate the pin and I will likely replace the pin at least once a year makes it highly unlikely that I will ever have a worn out pin.

jct61765 said:
As for using a drill bit to punch out a pin, that's just stupid.

A drill bit It actually works pretty well for occasional use. In fact, my results using a drill bit have been completely successful in installing the coiled spring pin to the correct depth WITHOUT mangling the pin. Whereas SIG screwed up and mangled the crap out of the pin and was UNsuccessful at inserting the pin to the correct depth. Are you really trying to argue with success?

jct61765 said:
You're using a hardened piece of steel, you're going to wallow out that hole.

Dude, a pin punch is a hardened piece of steel. As long as you size the punch correctly and use it correctly the punch does not even touch the side of the hole.

jct61765 said:
Chances are you wont because you sound cheap.

So that is why I use one of the most expensive synthetic lubes on the market?

jct61765 said:
I have a better idea than you do about about assembling and fixing guns.

You have already indicated that you did NOT understand process control. You accepted a FAILURE to properly insert a pin as acceptable. Sig's method FAILED, my method worked CORRECTLY.

jct61765 said:
I am now at Kimber.

I now have a great reason not to buy a Kimber.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

danez71 said:
It seems counter intuitive to grease a pin thats designed to be held in place by friction.

You use grease to facilitate the insertion so that the metal is not galled in the process, ESPECIALLY with stainless steel that has a tendency to gall. The spring pressure will work out any excess lube. If you have ever removed a lubed spring pin you are not going to worry about it coming out by itself. There is far too much spring pressure. The lube also reduces the chance that a steel pin will rust in place.

danez71 said:
And your reasoning to do so is to prevent wear during R&R of a part that shouldn't need or was designed to be R&Rd as do often?

The P365 needs finishing work right out of the box to perform at it's optimum performance. This is NOT a $5,000 hand crafted gun. Compromises were made by Sig to keep the cost down and their profits up. A bit of finishing work will make your P365 will make it easier to use and perform more reliably.

danez71 said:
And the reason you're doing it so often is (in part) because of your tests & to keep an eye on extractor damage from chambering in a way that Sig specifically told you not to do that way?

Manufacturers operate in THEIR best interest, NOT yours. Sig REFUSED to tell me if they did ANY kind of manual chambering testing at all! I am NOT concerned about damage to the extractor caused by manually chambering. My testing suggests that the extractor will fail from normal use long before it fails from manual chambering. I am concerned with the inevitable stress fatigue failure of the extractor claw caused by NORMAL use. There are stress risers on the extractor claw that I find concerning.

danez71 said:
That's a rabbit hole I'll stay out of.

If you are not mechanically inclined this may seem like a rabbit hole. This is actually very basic stuff. A P365 is far less complicated than an automobile engine. I perform far more complex work on engines.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

Master Blaster said:
You are paying for logistics, and convenience, that is what the $6 is for. Most folks just want an easy part replacement, not a research effort that leads to a huge bag of pins.

It took me less than 5 minutes to find these spring pins online. Grainger, McMasters, MSC.

Master Blaster said:
You could also hit your local hardware store for a split roll pin.

THAT would be a design change to go from coiled spring pin to a roll pin. I don't know that there would be any advantages AND it would more than likely be more difficult to insert.

Master Blaster said:
Like another poster mentioned that pin from your SIG, may be specially heat treated, and the 20 cent one may not. So your cheap replacement may fail at the worst time.

Coiled spring pins ARE heat treated. It's the heat treatment that makes them a spring. Also note that Sig's spring pin was soft enough to deform instead of break. It's an off the shelf coiled spring pin. There is nothing that demanding about this application that would warrant anything custom made.

I get the idea that many of you guys don't actually do much mechanical repair work, such as rebuilding auto engines or transmissions. The P365 really isn't rocket science. It's BASIC mechanics.

danez71 · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
This is NOT a $5,000 hand crafted gun.

Nothing you do will change that.

I'm not going to point/counter point every 2 sentences with you. It's your gun. Have at it.

Alllen Bundy said:
FYI, my IQ scores have averaged about 135.

That's about what mine is. The 1st times I was tested was initiated because my teachers thought maybe I needed help. I was bored.

The most valuable thing I ever learned was that there are a whole lot of people with lower IQ than mine, that are a heck of a lot smarter than I am.

Big_Al · Feb 21, 2022

To each his but I would rather spend the $6 and be done with it, I have 0 interest in all the tinkering.

jct61765 · Feb 21, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
You use grease to facilitate the insertion so that the metal is not galled in the process, ESPECIALLY with stainless steel that has a tendency to gall. The spring pressure will work out any excess lube. If you have ever removed a lubed spring pin you are not going to worry about it coming out by itself. There is far too much spring pressure. The lube also reduces the chance that a steel pin will rust in place.

The P365 needs finishing work right out of the box to perform at it's optimum performance. This is NOT a $5,000 hand crafted gun. Compromises were made by Sig to keep the cost down and their profits up. A bit of finishing work will make your P365 will make it easier to use and perform more reliably.

Manufacturers operate in THEIR best interest, NOT yours. Sig REFUSED to tell me if they did ANY kind of manual chambering testing at all! I am NOT concerned about damage to the extractor caused by manually chambering. My testing suggests that the extractor will fail from normal use long before it fails from manual chambering. I am concerned with the inevitable stress fatigue failure of the extractor claw caused by NORMAL use. There are stress risers on the extractor claw that I find concerning.

If you are not mechanically inclined this may seem like a rabbit hole. This is actually very basic stuff. A P365 is far less complicated than an automobile engine. I perform far more complex work on engines.

Dude, its your gun, due want you want. You come on here complaining about what wasn't done to the gun. How it wasn't made to your standards. Did you think no one was going to call you out? You want stuff polished, buy a wilson combat. As for you staying away from Kimber, you're too cheap to buy one.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

jct61765 said:
Did you think no one was going to call you out?

For what? Daring to challenge the status quo? Or to call out defective workmanship? I don't just complain about something, I find practical solutions.

jct61765 said:
You want stuff polished, buy a wilson combat.

Sorry, but I'd rather do it myself. I've already managed to add 17% more counterweight to my P365 grip module that Wilson Combat did to theirs. Looking at their design, I suspect that it is easier to misalign a magazine during insertion with a Wilson Combat grip module than with my modified P365 grip module.

I don't believe that WilsonCombat even makes a weighted P365XL grip module like mine.

jct61765 said:
As for you staying away from Kimber, you're too cheap to buy one.

Sorry, but my P365X has a 14 + 1 capacity whereas the Kimber R7 Mako has only 13 + 1 capacity at best.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

jct61765 said:
As for you staying away from Kimber, you're too cheap to buy one.

Also, I don't see a manual safety option. I don't want a pistol withjout a manual safety.

clutch said:
I suspect Sig puts a dollar value on having someone to process and pick your part.

Kinda like they way Porsche charges double for the same part used in a Volkswagen. There have been times when my local VW dealership was out of stock but the Porsche dealer had the part at twice the price.

9mmepiphany · Feb 22, 2022

I think this thread has circled the drain long enough

Excessive Sig Parts Cost - Coiled Spring Pin $6.00? YIKES!

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