Do Torque Values Matter? If Finger Tight Good Enough?

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redcon1 said:
There's more to torquing than just turning the wrench. It matters where you hold the wrench, how you hold the wrench, if the threads are dry or wet, if your torque wrench is in spec or out of spec, if your using an adapter that changes the angle from where you apply the force (the handle) to the centerline of the bolt being torqued, etc. For delicate little hex head screws like we see on scopes, I always used to use the long part of a hex wrench so I couldn't apply too much torque with my fingers. Now I use my real avid torque wrench for those applications and it feels like it's right around where I used to tighten them by feel but it's reassuring to know that I did the job the harder right way (to the best of my abilities) rather than doing it the easier wrong way.
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In a nutshell using a torque wrench is a skill much like using many other tools. Years ago, maybe 20 years ago, we ran into a problem where I worked. We had about a dozen technicians run some torque testing. The numbers we were getting were mind boggling. This included both dial indicator torque wrenches and click type torque wrenches. We had torque testers similar to these CDI / Snap On units and before every use the wrenches were tested by the using technician with results logged in. Before all of these new procedures were incorporated as I mentioned, it was a train wreck. We also had classes to teach proper use of the wrench including as mentioned how to hold the wrench for the different types.

Today I guess things are much better since I retired going on 9 years ago but I have never forgotten that mess. It's all about knowing how to correctly apply torque with the tool in your hand. :)

Ron
 
I follow the old saying “ Tight is tight, too tight’s broke”. I actually have heard the same as was previously mentioned about holding the small end of the Allen wrench, then swapping ends and giving it a quarter turn tighter.
 
"Finger tight" is so subjective, it is entirely based on both the personal hand strength of the individual AND the ergonomics of the screwdriver being used. I use a torque screwdriver for EVERYTHING gun related, even my revolver side plate screws. A defined torque value is the best way to go, and if a manufacturer suggests a specific value that is what I will use. If the manufacturer suggested torque values feel like too much, it's probably just a factor of one of the two aforementioned variables to "finger tight" and not that the screw is actually being torqued too much.
 
Reloadron said:
Before all of these new procedures were incorporated as I mentioned, it was a train wreck. We also had classes to teach proper use of the wrench including as mentioned how to hold the wrench for the different types.
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I have recently been on a torque wrench buying spree actually and have spent at least a few hours reviewing the use of this tool. It has been enlightening. Once you start reviewing the proper use of a torque wrench, you quickly find yourself in engineering territory which is interesting of course but it's a lot to take in. a whole lot. It's a deep rabbit hole. It's probably good to just understand that you're probably doing it wrong and then proceed forward from that understanding. Start your goggling with that in mind.
 
Finger tight means just that- finger tight. The nut or fastener is installed with no more torque than with a normal grip of the fingers. No tools. If tools are used, it means tighten until the nut or fastener makes contact with the mounting surface or threaded enough to hold something in place. If something is just finger tight, it has almost no torque at all.

Yes, finger tight is a defined, technical term used in technical manuals, such as aircraft maintenance manuals. For example, the manual might say "Install bolts finger tight to hold gizmo in place. Then torque using a star pattern." "Finger tight" doesn't mean "tightening without a torque wrench." When I read "I installed it finger tight" I was expected it to be followed with the statement "my scope flew off into the bushes on the first shot."

"Tighten until snug" is another technical term. In some instances, the torque value is given as "tighten until snug, then tighten another quarter turn" or a variation thereof.

Yes, proper torque is important. Some torque requirements are more important than others.
 
OrangeCat said:
Speaking as someone who works in a factory setting where everything is held in place with Allen head screws, anyone using a cheater bar on an Allen wrench should be terminated with Soviet prejudice.
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The cheater bar made me think of a couple of years I spent in underground maintenance in a potash mine. A lot of the equipment was put together with allen head bolts, Big, air hardening steel allen bolts. A cheater pipe wouldn't get them tight enough to hold very long so our torque wrenches were 10# doublejacks with sawed off handles and you hammered on the wrench until it wouldn't go no mo'. No one ever broke a bolt but those wrenches would get beat all to crap. I was a welder but in the rare times when I wasn't welding something back together that the miners had broken I got to beat on allen wrenches too.
 
Saw an issue w/pre-applied thread locker that required exceeding the torque requirements of the fastener as the fastener was run into the threaded parts. We spent a fair amount of time gaging threads and checking torque wrenches before we figured out the real issue. Have been a little leery of pre-applied since then.
 
Reloadron said:
In a nutshell using a torque wrench is a skill much like using many other tools. Years ago, maybe 20 years ago, we ran into a problem where I worked. We had about a dozen technicians run some torque testing. The numbers we were getting were mind boggling. This included both dial indicator torque wrenches and click type torque wrenches. We had torque testers similar to these CDI / Snap On units and before every use the wrenches were tested by the using technician with results logged in. Before all of these new procedures were incorporated as I mentioned, it was a train wreck. We also had classes to teach proper use of the wrench including as mentioned how to hold the wrench for the different types.

Today I guess things are much better since I retired going on 9 years ago but I have never forgotten that mess. It's all about knowing how to correctly apply torque with the tool in your hand. :)

Ron
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Yup. I'm gonna run right out and get me one of them torque tester meters just so's I don't over torque my scope base screws and scope ring screws. :D:D:D
 
Rule3 said:
I love it when people write in acronyms, models and other alpha number stuff and then talk about torque values:confused:
Even worse in the SW forums, Whats a good load for a 61 dash 5?
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"Love" ain't the right word.
 
Poper said:
Yup. I'm gonna run right out and get me one of them torque tester meters just so's I don't over torque my scope base screws and scope ring screws.
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I think the underlying point is that just because you have your torque wrench set to a particular number, there's no guarantee that that number accurately reflects the actual torque applied to the bolt/nut. It could be significantly above or below the manufacturer's specifications depending on a number of factors that you might not have thought about and these factors are something that you might want to be cognizant of if you don't enjoy busting screws or having your bolts loosen up. or you can just use an allen wrench and some loctite and hope it's good enough.
My thing right now is trying to decide how much torque I should apply to a barrel nut that is specified at like 30-45 ft/lbs dry. The problem is, you don't install a barrel nut dry, you lubricate it with aeroshell or some other anti-seize compound and if you set your torque wrench to 40 ft/lbs and torque down your nut, you're actually applying more than 40 ft/lbs of torque to the nut. How much more isn't clear. Maybe as much as 55% more or as little as 30% more. Is that going to break the barrel nut? I don't know. Probably not. 30-45 ft/lbs is a pretty narrow range though. So you need to think about it as you start wrenching and shimming. Closer to 30 ft/lbs is probably better so even if you are off by 55%, you're still right around 45 ft/lbs. If you're only adding 30% more, you're right where you want to be.
 
I will use one in some applications. As an ordnance mechanic on A-4 Skyhawk's and later F15's for 20 years, torque wrenches, micrometers, depth gauges and more were part of daily life. The heaviest torque we applied was 300 ft lbs to the mounting bolts of A-4 Skyhawk bomb racks. You had one guy reading the dial from underneath while the other guy applied the force using a 3 foot cheater bar.

The lightest torque was around 10 in lbs, applied to the conveyer link bolts for the 20mm Vulcan gun system. In most gun related things we do, measuring precise torque is not necessary, but in some applications if a maker has a torque value they recommend, I'll usually adhere to it, if nothing else than to ensure I'm getting enough tightening force without breaking anything.
 
Rule3 said:
I love it when people write in acronyms, models and other alpha number stuff and then talk about torque values:confused:
Even worse in the SW forums, Whats a good load for a 61 dash 5?
Click to expand...

I hope that's tounge on cheek. I hate acronyms, use at least abbreviations.
 
I have to believe they do. I bought a torque driver specifically for gun stuff, and while finger tight/ by feel, always seemed to work just fine that torque wrench following factory specs for a given product gives me the warm fuzzies and is worth the $60 to me to feel that it's done "right"
 
Another thing to consider is an array of fasteners, like the lug nuts on a car wheel. It is important that they are all the same.
An example in firearm would be scope rings. If you have screws on left and right you really want them to be equally tight.
 
PWC said:
I hope that's tounge on cheek. I hate acronyms, use at least abbreviations.
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More sarcasm. I worked for the State Dept of Redundancy and Acronyms.

Not everyone knows what every model of every gun and or optic is.(and I have been around guns a long time) It's nice to put the brand so others can play along. A B-22 sound more like a plane to me, A Maverick was an old car, now to became a new Truck (those would be Ford)
 
redcon1 said:
I think the underlying point is that just because you have your torque wrench set to a particular number, there's no guarantee that that number accurately reflects the actual torque applied to the bolt/nut. It could be significantly above or below the manufacturer's specifications depending on a number of factors that you might not have thought about and these factors are something that you might want to be cognizant of if you don't enjoy busting screws or having your bolts loosen up. or you can just use an allen wrench and some loctite and hope it's good enough.
My thing right now is trying to decide how much torque I should apply to a barrel nut that is specified at like 30-45 ft/lbs dry. The problem is, you don't install a barrel nut dry, you lubricate it with aeroshell or some other anti-seize compound and if you set your torque wrench to 40 ft/lbs and torque down your nut, you're actually applying more than 40 ft/lbs of torque to the nut. How much more isn't clear. Maybe as much as 55% more or as little as 30% more. Is that going to break the barrel nut? I don't know. Probably not. 30-45 ft/lbs is a pretty narrow range though. So you need to think about it as you start wrenching and shimming. Closer to 30 ft/lbs is probably better so even if you are off by 55%, you're still right around 45 ft/lbs. If you're only adding 30% more, you're right where you want to be.
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I'm sorry.
I guess my tongue got stuck in my teeth and didn't make it completely into my cheek! ;)
 
DustyGmt said:
I have to believe they do. I bought a torque driver specifically for gun stuff, and while finger tight/ by feel, always seemed to work just fine that torque wrench following factory specs for a given product gives me the warm fuzzies and is worth the $60 to me to feel that it's done "right"
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B-b-b-but, Dusty! Ya gotta run out and git yerse'ff one a-them thar $1700 tork tester meters jest so's ya know yer tork rench is acker-ate an' yer torkin' them sckroos kee-recktly, doncha know!!! :D:D
 
Poper said:
B-b-b-but, Dusty! Ya gotta run out and git yerse'ff one a-them thar $1700 tork tester meters jest so's ya know yer tork rench is acker-ate an' yer torkin' them sckroos kee-recktly, doncha know!!! :D:D
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It's all good. this is just an interesting topic and I'm probably just keeping it afloat.:)
 
I feel torque is also so all screws are tighten the same so not to warp the rings or scope tube (aluminum rim on cars/trucks), torque on multiple screws should be "walked up" on, start at 10in lbs then 15 then 20, if 15in lbs feels good go for it as long as there is a "little" blue locktite there to help with retention, remember a lot of the rings are aluminum. I'm a firm believer in torque and locktite (old Harley rider), I've found on a Savage Axis that the stock to action screw needs 35in lbs, if not it doesn't shoot good. I have a torque driver that is from the 70s and a Wheeler one that came in a scope mounting tool kit and they are both about the same
 
I like torque wrenches to help ensure consistency from fastener to fastener, not necessarily to chase the "precise" torque value. (But it's good to get close)

As an aside... if you see a Snap-On truck rolling around, catch them and they can calibrate your torque wrenches, even if they are not Snap-On.
 
twofewscrews said:
What would be an instance of not being able to get to the manufacturers torque setting? or another way of putting, what would prevent you or stop from torquing something to a manufacturers setting?
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If the torque setting isn't widely known, found online, and the company is out of business. I have no doubt for companies in business it is a question that can be handled by calling or emailing customer service. Most CS agents can provide that information quickly. This sheet is a guideline for scopes when I can't get the manufacteuers specs.
 

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Google has informed me that the torque wrench has been around since (about) 1918. When Winchester, Sharps, S&W, Remington, etc we’re manufacturing all of those tens of thousands of firearms before the torque wrench was born, what did they use to judge tightness/ torque when assembling their product?
 
Steve S. said:
what did they use to judge tightness/ torque when assembling their product?
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They had experienced gunsmiths who made the fasteners and the tools to drive them. These folks had been in the trade for generations, and were intimately familiar with the materials they worked with. Their parts were not interchangeable because each was created to fit in one spot only. The turnscrews (screwdrivers) nestled in the presentation case had been crafted to fit the screws in that particular gun, and one knew the torque was right when the slots in the screwheads were aligned with the bore.
 
I prefer turn-of-the-nut tightening over torque if given the option. If you want all your screws or bolts to be the same that works regardless of coating, oil, rust, etc. That was probably how it was done before the torque wrench came about or someone just hooked a spring scale to the end of a wrench.
 
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