Ukraine to Grant Citizens Right to Bear Arms

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One of the elements of a successful defense is the support of a capable third party. The French helped make our revolutionary war successful, the North Koreans and Vietnamese of the north were aided and abetted by the Chinese, we helped make Afghanistan tough sledding for the
Russians, and Pakistan was kind enough to give aid and comfort to the Taliban to give us the boot. We helped France in WWII although we took a bit of abuse from the vichy in north Africa. It's a matter of the size of the fight in the dog, and getting by with a little help from friends.

Nobody knows how this will play out. This may be the beginning of the end of the Putin era, despite all appearances to the contrary.
 
lemaymiami said:
Never too late... but an armed populace in this case will just lead to slaughter (on both sides) -then the aggressors will sweep up the remnants. From my perspective the outcome is not in doubt... Wish I were wrong...
Pretty sure there are lots and lots of veterans there - and bet that most served in the Russian army...
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No doubt Russia can take over Ukraine but the question is at what cost and if they can hold it. It's happened before to Russia in Afghanistan and other occupations. Armed civilians and guerrilla warfare is the only way. Kind of like Vietnam in some ways.
 
Bruce D Pease said:
As I understand it they are only handing out weapons to people who are veterans of the Ukrainian armed forces and those civilians who have already taken their “ crash” course in firearms handling. They also called up their reserves males from 18 to 60. The Ukraine has a history of effective partisan resistance in the Second World War. If the Russians go for the cities then these irregular troops can cause myriad problems and casualties. It’ll make it more costly for the Russians.
I’m sure any other old vets here would respond to the call if it was our country in trouble. We may not be 18 or even 40 anymore but we can still shoot etc. and many of us don’t need to go farther than the next room to arm up.
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That has changed. From what I heard this morning Ukraine has dropped the age restriction on who they hand out rifles to. An act of desperation to replenish they're losses. Sad to see civilians and kids going to slaughter but you have to admire their willingness to fight for freedom. Same can be said for President Zelinski not fleeing and staying to fight knowing what he and his family faces. God bless them.
 
General Geoff said:
I completely agree. A gesture which may have worked if they did it a year, or even 3 months ago. But to wait for an invasion to begin before saying "oh hey yeah now you're allowed to have guns to defend yourselves and your nation," well that doesn't do much good now.
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This. If the government doesn't trust its people with arms in times of peace, they reap what the sow in times like this. Not exactly a direct comparison, but reminds of of the CA riots when people that never wanted anything to do with guns before suddenly felt the need to get one, ran to the gun store and couldn't believe they had to pass background checks and wait days before having it in hand.
 
You also need to look at it from another viewpoint.

If you do grab citizens and say guess what you are in the army now, lots of things can happen. First off the people that are in the military that drive trucks, cook food, run cable, push paper......think about every non combat role, all those can be freed up to move into combat roles. I don't think I have seen any army where even a clerk does not know how to do basic "soldier stuff" he may be rusty but he has at least been exposed to it.

So these new citizens can indeed be a big help.
 
LaneP said:
reminds [me] of the CA riots when people that never wanted anything to do with guns before suddenly felt the need to get one, ran to the gun store and couldn't believe they had to pass background checks and wait days before having it in hand.
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And despite the 10 day waiting period for gun purchase, since Rodney King riots/Korea Town rooftop Koreans, Bank of America Hollywood AK47 shoot out, Duncan v Becerra magazine ban case now awaiting US Supreme Court, federal judge releasing inmates from CA prisons, gangs/meth production/distribution related crime (CA manufactures much of country's meth supply), homeless/transient crime, etc. Californians have been arming ourselves at record setting pace.

Much of around 10 million guns sold each year have been sold in CA decade after decade. Many CA counties have set records for number of guns/ammunition sold and CCW permits issued. Contrary to what some people may think, Californians may be one of more heavily armed states even with gun restriction laws we had to work with over the decades as "CA Compliant" list of firearms is still quite long. All the gun stores I have talked to up and down the state sold more guns in the past several years/10 years than all the years/decades they have been open (That's A LOT of guns sold).

As to OP, as unfortunate for Ukraine, Russia invasion is another wake up call to countries around the world, particularly European countries to reconsider their anti-gun laws and change. In the US, what's happening to Ukraine undoubtedly will fuel pro-gun sentiment.

I do hope things work out for Ukraine but war is just a reality that has existed throughout history of mankind.
 
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General Geoff said:
Ukraine has the right idea but it's too little, too late now.
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This is the part that needs to be pointed out. The gun grabbers will point to this decision and say “see, we can give them back to you if you really need them” (once we have failed to protect you).

The failure of this last ditch “Hail Mary pass” decision is what you would focus on in your discussion. It’s the last act of desperation, not a calculated decision like creating the 2nd Amendment.
 
LiveLife said:
And despite the 10 day waiting period for gun purchase, since Rodney King riots/Korea Town rooftop Koreans, Bank of America Hollywood AK47 shoot out, Duncan v Becerra magazine ban case now awaiting US Supreme Court, federal judge releasing inmates from CA prisons, gangs/meth production/distribution related crime (CA manufactures much of country's meth supply), homeless/transient crime, etc. Californians have been arming ourselves at record setting pace.

Much of around 10 million guns sold each year have been sold in CA decade after decade. Many CA counties have set records for number of guns/ammunition sold and CCW permits issued. Contrary to what some people may think, Californians may be one of more heavily armed states even with gun restriction laws we had to work with over the decades as "CA Compliant" list of firearms is still quite long. All the gun stores I have talked to up and down the state sold more guns in the past several years/10 years than all the years/decades they have been open (That's A LOT of guns sold).

As to OP, as unfortunate for Ukraine, Russia invasion is another wake up call to countries around the world, particularly European countries to reconsider their anti-gun laws and change. In the US, what's happening to Ukraine undoubtedly will fuel pro-gun sentiment.

I do hope things work out for Ukraine but war is just a reality that has existed throughout history of mankind.
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I think everything CA has done in the way of gun control has not only backfired but significantly increased demand and prices. When the pacifists in my own family come begging for arms (or when stores outside of CA are stripped bare of ammo) i know this to be true. Some CA LEO's i know say that unemployed CA pot dealers have switched to gun running to supplement lost incomes.
 
Silly people, didn't you listen to uncle Joe? It takes F15s and Nuclear weapons to fight a war. What good will letting people have a rifle or handgun do? (tongue in cheek)

One can hope, that the antis will see the militia (the people) being armed in this instance and realize the error of their ways, but I don't believe that is likely - horse to water, etc.

This of course assumes nobody pushes the launch button. If they do, after the Mutually assured destruction, Launch on warning, etc have occurred, whoever is left will be using those small arms to protect and feed themselves on irradiated wildlife.

Edited to add: I had hoped that the threat of nuclear launch would never be heard again in my or my children's lifetimes, but here we are again with Russia and the US rattling their sabers.

God help us all
 
webrx said:
Silly people, didn't you listen to uncle Joe? It takes F15s and Nuclear weapons to fight a war.
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He knows better than that, he couldn’t even get out of a war (we lost despite fighting it for 20 years) with people that had neither, without loss of life.

That said, I don’t think the mission of war should be to fight. That’s how we have lost the ones we have, the goal was not to win. Remaining in and prolonged conflict are poor tactics for winning a war where you are on the “visiting team”.

It is the tactic inferior powers on the “home team” have used though. We were not the only ones to loose wars that way. The Soviet’s spent a decade in there (1979-1989) themselves before they realized their methods were going to be unsuccessful.

Joe probably remembers the loss handed to us in Vietnam too. After all it was him, as a freshman Senator, who two weeks before Saigon fell, was in the Whitehouse telling Ford the situation in Vietnam was hopeless and we needed to leave asap….
 
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This is another reason I joined up, to have fun talks like this.

You can look at conflicts all over the world for the past 50 years and point to "low tech" vs "high tech". Remember in the land called the graveyard of empires the Russians got it handed to them by a bunch of sheep.....farmers.

The same thing could happen here. If they hang in there, make every effort the bleed them white, they might give up and go home. Sure they will "win" at the start, but winning and then controlling is something very different. And I think if the ukarine people dig their heals in and resist day in day out and never give up, the area being so close to the rest of europe will be a plus. Easy to get stuff in and out. It is not the first time a big bully went after the little kid and the little kid won in the long run. From what I understand many people in ukraine thought it would just not happen. I watch this cute little couple on youtube, I guess they are late 20-early 30's. And he did a live video the other day.....he said again and again they did not think they would actually invade....you could tell he was really torn up.
 
Remington1911 said:
This is another reason I joined up, to have fun talks like this.

You can look at conflicts all over the world for the past 50 years and point to "low tech" vs "high tech". Remember in the land called the graveyard of empires the Russians got it handed to them by a bunch of sheep.....farmers.

The same thing could happen here. If they hang in there, make every effort the bleed them white, they might give up and go home. Sure they will "win" at the start, but winning and then controlling is something very different. And I think if the ukarine people dig their heals in and resist day in day out and never give up, the area being so close to the rest of europe will be a plus. Easy to get stuff in and out. It is not the first time a big bully went after the little kid and the little kid won in the long run. From what I understand many people in ukraine thought it would just not happen. I watch this cute little couple on youtube, I guess they are late 20-early 30's. And he did a live video the other day.....he said again and again they did not think they would actually invade....you could tell he was really torn up.
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I don't know there are a lot of people in the Ukraine that have significant ties to Russia Zelensky had a chance to join NATO and he didn't either way it is a cluster right now feel sorry for the majority who just want to live and raise their families in peace.
 
I am seeing healthy young women with Kalishnakovs and pony tails. This is a Thermopylae moment for them. It hasn’t become a guerrilla movement quite yet. If they learned anything from Romania and Chechnya they have a plan. Time and history will tell. Like I mentioned earlier no greater motivation than protecting your family who is hunkered down in a Subway tunnel. Russian troops don’t have that motivation.
 
Remington1911 said:
Sure they will "win" at the start, but winning and then controlling is something very different.
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This is true, why I didn’t mention Iraq at all, just the ones we couldn’t even get the “win” in to even attempt to maintain.
 
starnbar said:
I don't know there are a lot of people in the Ukraine that have significant ties to Russia Zelensky had a chance to join NATO and he didn't either way it is a cluster right now feel sorry for the majority who just want to live and raise their families in peace.
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You are right abut the cluster. This one thread is worth the time to join this forum....just wanted to get that out of the way before I start babbling. I have a feeling I am going to get very long winded.

We need to understand, or at least try to understand how the people think and feel over there. This is not unlike the falling apart and reforming around the area that was once yougoslavia. There are ethnic groups over there that just don't like eachother.

Back after WWI the western powers in their all knowing stupidity carved up....well the world. Ukraine was "made" at this time. After the soviets put their own house in order they started looking around and saw the ukarine....and started playing games there. They along with the poles, double down on the poles really put a spanking on the soviets, they won in the end and paid for it to the tune of about 3 million deaths under stalin.

Now the ussr fell apart and we still have people remembering uncle povlov going missing and they do not have a real strong like for the russians. Many speak russian, and ukraine has its own language, that sounds a great deal like russian.....really a holdover form the pre soviet days. Many remember the stories and that culture and are trying to bring it back. Ukraine is also seen as the bread basket of europe and the russians know that.

It will be interesting to watch.
 
I know everyone is watching Ukraine and Russia right now, and thinking what will China do to Taiwan. I am not worried about those as Ukraine has the rest of Europe for resupply via smuggler routes. China will not invade Taiwan as they will loose a bunch of resources in the fight. China is most likely looking north to Siberia, especially with the Russian army many thousands of miles away. That will give China a large real estate and resource boost, and it will eliminate a major political rival at the same time. We live in "interesting times."
 
Double_J said:
I know everyone is watching Ukraine and Russia right now, and thinking what will China do to Taiwan. I am not worried about those as Ukraine has the rest of Europe for resupply via smuggler routes. China will not invade Taiwan as they will loose a bunch of resources in the fight. China is most likely looking north to Siberia, especially with the Russian army many thousands of miles away. That will give China a large real estate and resource boost, and it will eliminate a major political rival at the same time. We live in "interesting times."
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That’s an interesting scenario. If that happens I’ll bet Russia wouldn’t be afraid to pop some battlefield nukes over Chinese formations in an area like Siberia.
 
Russia's foreign policy isn't nearly as schizophrenic as our own . They are highly unlikely to fight against a guerrilla insurgency by tying their soldiers hands behind their backs .
 
My wife is Russian. She is very distressed about this. Two of her best friends here are Russian, and the other two are Ukrainian. One of the Ukrainians told her last night that her mother, who lives in Kiev, has been hearing the shelling.

My wife has been planning to summer in Russia with her family, as she does every year (along with our daughter, who is being raised in both cultures to an extent.) Inga also frequently travels home to Kiev.

It actually occurred to me to wonder if Inga, should she travel there (not likely, as civilian air traffic has been shut down), could bring with her, as a symbolic gesture of support, a couple of boxes of AK ammunition I'd give her to donate to the military or any resistance fighters she meets. It's even Russian-made ammo, at that. Just musing; no plans at this time to try this.
 
WHY are the Ukraines NOT mining those roads the Russians are using to invade? WHY are they NOT blowing up Russia's money pipelines that flow through all over their country? Simple things any one could do, especially in areas they STILL control.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
The funny part is this:

"... the Ukrainian government has moved to declare a 30-day state of emergency, grant citizens the right to bear arms, and conscript military reservists..."

No. What they are doing isn't "granting" a "right", they're "granting" a "privilege".

If something is a "right" it doesn't need to be "granted". The people already have it. What's really happened is historically their government has been DENYING it's citizens this right in the first place.

What they're trying to do is ARM their citizens while they go about conscripting their reservists into active duty military. This would give them a larger population of armed citizens to pull from in defense.

After the need for military support in defense of their country goes away, they will go right back to the way things were before and that privilege will disappear.

However, as I'm sure someone else has already said, this is too little, too late.
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Right, a MONTH ago their own government didn't trust them with a 22 pistol and today they expect those same people to grab an automatic rifle and fight to the death to protect their former oppressors? P... on that. Here comes the NEw boss, same as the old boss.
 
codytrucker said:
Russia's foreign policy isn't nearly as schizophrenic as our own . They are highly unlikely to fight against a guerrilla insurgency by tying their soldiers hands behind their backs .
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Really does not matter too much, remember afghanistan was the straw that broke the ussr's back. They had some pretty rough policy there as well. If a guerrilla war does keep this thing hot it is very hard to shut down and shut down quickly. This is why you remember.....or read about how the soviets crushed....uprisings I guess I will say, in the past....roll in with a huge force and smash it.
 
MedWheeler said:
My wife is Russian. She is very distressed about this. Two of her best friends here are Russian, and the other two are Ukrainian. One of the Ukrainians told her last night that her mother, who lives in Kiev, has been hearing the shelling.

My wife has been planning to summer in Russia with her family, as she does every year (along with our daughter, who is being raised in both cultures to an extent.) Inga also frequently travels home to Kiev.

It actually occurred to me to wonder if Inga, should she travel there (not likely, as civilian air traffic has been shut down), could bring with her, as a symbolic gesture of support, a couple of boxes of AK ammunition I'd give her to donate to the military or any resistance fighters she meets. It's even Russian-made ammo, at that. Just musing; no plans at this time to try this.
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Oh yeah. There’s an idea. Send your family in to a war zone smuggling ammunition.
It sounds like you don’t like them very much.
Besides, a couple of boxes aren’t going to make much difference. Maybe a couple of crates might make a tiny difference.
 
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