Implications of purchasing nine pistols at once

dogtown tom said:

He's an idiot.

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To be fair to the FFL. I bought two different high-end guns on line over the period of several weeks. I just happened to pick them up from the FFL on the same day. He told me that I could take both now and the multi-handgun report would be sent or I could choose to leave now with one and come back next week for the other. I don’t feel like that was shady. I ended up just taking both home with me. No big deal.

guyfromohio said:

To be fair to the FFL. I bought two different high-end guns on line over the period of several weeks. I just happened to pick them up from the FFL on the same day. He told me that I could take both now and the multi-handgun report would be sent or I could choose to leave now with one and come back next week for the other. I don’t feel like that was shady. I ended up just taking both home with me. No big deal.

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I can't imagine the ATF giving a damn about that. I suspect it would take a substantial purchase to get their attention.

The FFL will complete a Multiple Sale form, and mail it to their local chief law enforcement officer and also to the ATF. ATF may visit you and start asking questions.

Because buying multiple handguns at once is legal on the federal level and in any state, the purchase of multiple handguns at once is not prima facie evidence of anything.

As always, it's a good idea to have a lawyer and to not speak to law enforcement without said lawyer present. You're also legally entitled to tell any ATF agents who start asking you questions to leave and go back to fishing donuts out of their office vending machine.

I bought a "lot" with 6 guns at auction. Different from the OP as the shipment to my FFL was all at one time from one FFL. They were all different models as well. The FFL offered to spread the transfers out, not because of the BATF, but because he'd have to file a report with the local city for anything over 3 (or maybe 5). There wasn't anything wrong with the multiple transfer, but he thought I might be concerned that the filing with the city would become public record. I opted to take them all at once. Never heard from ATF or from that city.

alfsauve said:

I bought a "lot" with 6 guns at auction. Different from the OP as the shipment to my FFL was all at one time from one FFL.

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It's exactly the same situation.

....The FFL offered to spread the transfers out, not because of the BATF, but because he'd have to file a report with the local city for anything over 3 (or maybe 5). There wasn't anything wrong with the multiple transfer, but he thought I might be concerned that the filing with the city would become public record.

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Again, two or more from that dealer in any five business day period means ATF and the CLEO (the chief law enforcement officer of your city) are going to get a copy of that multiple sale report.

CherokeeGunslinger said:

The FFL will complete a Multiple Sale form, and mail it to their local chief law enforcement officer and also to the ATF. ATF may visit you and start asking questions.

Because buying multiple handguns at once is legal on the federal level and in any state, the purchase of multiple handguns at once is not prima facie evidence of anything.

As always, it's a good idea to have a lawyer and to not speak to law enforcement without said lawyer present. You're also legally entitled to tell any ATF agents who start asking you questions to leave and go back to fishing donuts out of their office vending machine.

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Interesting post.

So if by chance the ATF comes knocking at your door asking about multiple guns purchases. Would you say, no comment without my lawyer present?
So please leave??????

Do they need a warrant??

Of course this is only if you have nothing to hide or did anything illegal.

CherokeeGunslinger said:

You're also legally entitled to tell any ATF agents who start asking you questions to leave and go back to fishing donuts out of their office vending machine.

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A LEO donut joke. How original. This is the Legal section, and this is really bad advice. Maybe the ATF agents you want the OP to insult are just doing their jobs, and a better idea may be for the OP to let them know he bought a collection at an auction and he and the ATF agents move on. I'm assuming the OP is smart enough to not mouth off to them and unnecessarily escalate things.

Reading this has piqued my curiosity. A few weeks ago I picked up a handgun from a local dealer's original location that I had put on lay-a-way for my wife. The next day, I found a handgun I had been looking for at the same dealer's second location a few miles away.

Not that it makes a difference to me since if I am not already on the ATF's radar they definitely aren't doing their job but would that require a multiple sale form?

TomJ said:

A LEO donut joke. How original. This is the Legal section, and this is really bad advice. Maybe the ATF agents you want the OP to insult are just doing their jobs, and a better idea may be for the OP to let them know he bought a collection at an auction and he and the ATF agents move on. I'm assuming the OP is smart enough to not mouth off to them and unnecessarily escalate things.

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I agree.
A simple "I bought them for my personal use and collection" if truthful, is the best answer.
While "take a hike you doughnut eating ATF man!" sounds really cool when you relay your story to your fishing buddies, it sure as heck isn't going to earn you any points with the guys who CAN make your life a bit miserable.

You don't need to violate a federal law for ATF to issue you a cease & desist letter. The letter telling you that all your firearm transfer must be done through a licensed dealer.
As always, you might beat the rap, but you never beat the ride.

zdc1775 said:

Reading this has piqued my curiosity. A few weeks ago I picked up a handgun from a local dealer's original location that I had put on lay-a-way for my wife. The next day, I found a handgun I had been looking for at the same dealer's second location a few miles away.

Not that it makes a difference to me since if I am not already on the ATF's radar they definitely aren't doing their job but would that require a multiple sale form?

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No.
Each premises will have a separate FFL. You can buy one handgun from every Academy or Cabelas in your state on the same day.....no report because it isn't the same FFL.

Same as above. Never had it myself despite some same-week purchases but a few friends have had either multiples on the same day or amassed large stocks for business purposes, and ATF would usually just call, ask what's the deal. You explain and they go "okie dokie." I presume they put your name on a list so if some other unlawful-dealer flags arise this is also referred to, but since you are above board, no big deal.

With the big lot, I WOULD think about if you are going to sell some onward soon. Remember ownership and transfer are different, so you could have all shipped to the LGS, then only transfer a few to yourself, sell the rest there on consingment, send them back out to distant sellers etc etc. I have done that for a few guns (like the second time one came back from warranty repair, "just put it back on the shelf please" and two less rounds of transfer paperwork then,), but if someone pops up to say that's sketchy or illegal, ignore me!

dogtown tom said:

No.
Each premises will have a separate FFL. You can buy one handgun from every Academy or Cabelas in your state on the same day.....no report because it isn't the same FFL.

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That was kind of my thought but didn't know if the fact that it was one business umbrella made a difference.

shoobe01 said:

Same as above. Never had it myself despite some same-week purchases but a few friends have had either multiples on the same day or amassed large stocks for business purposes, and ATF would usually just call, ask what's the deal.

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Want your door kicked in?
Hate your old dog?
Buying guns for "business purposes" means you darn well better hold an FFL.

....Remember ownership and transfer are different, so you could have all shipped to the LGS, then only transfer a few to yourself, sell the rest there on consingment, send them back out to distant sellers etc etc. I have done that for a few guns (like the second time one came back from warranty repair, "just put it back on the shelf please" and two less rounds of transfer paperwork then,), but if someone pops up to say that's sketchy or illegal, ignore me!

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It's not sketchy in the least.
I've done that for a couple of customers.

zdc1775 said:

That was kind of my thought but didn't know if the fact that it was one business umbrella made a difference.

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No.
An FFL is for one specific business location. While an FFL is allowed to conduct business away from his licensed premises, it must be a gun show or other special event related to the shooting sports.

A licensee is also prohibited from conducting business from a wheeled vehicle. So, no home deliveries.

Spats McGee said:

Dangit. There goes my idea to become a millionaire.

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I asked at my interview. The IOI said "Oh hell no, if we did that everyone in Dallas would be driving around South Oak Cliff with a car full of guns!"

Now, IMO, it wouldn't change anything. Wheeled vehicle or not, the dealer has the same recordkeeping requirements at a gun show as he does at his licensed premises.

dogtown tom said:

I asked at my interview. The IOI said "Oh hell no, if we did that everyone in Dallas would be driving around South Oak Cliff with a car full of guns!"

Now, IMO, it wouldn't change anything. Wheeled vehicle or not, the dealer has the same recordkeeping requirements at a gun show as he does at his licensed premises.

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Totally goofy question: what if you drove the “gun bus” into a parking lot, jacked it up on blocks, removed the wheels and stayed there for a couple of months?

Second goofy question: could an FFL deliver a gun to someone’s home if they had previously completed the transaction at their legitimate place of business?

I've purchased 10 AR15 stripped lowers and 3 handguns all at once in the past. I have an FFL that does 3 transfers for $20 and $5 per after that. I've transfered multiple handguns and rifles several times over within the course of a decade. I never had a problem, and if someone I didn't know came knocking, I wouldn't answer the door. If I did answer the door, I'd tell them to kick rocks.

CherokeeGunslinger said:

buying multiple handguns at once is legal on the federal level and in any state,

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Actually, there are Several States that have time limits on purchases--VA's now expired "1 gun a month" rule being an example. The several States that require a Pistol Purchase Permit are unlikely to issue those n multiples as well.

CapnMac said:

Actually, there are Several States that have time limits on purchases--VA's now expired "1 gun a month" rule being an example. The several States that require a Pistol Purchase Permit are unlikely to issue those n multiples as well.

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VA's one gun a month rule is now in affect for those without a CPP. Our former Blackface KKK Democrat governor and Bloomberg had it reinstated. The majority of states allow any number of handgun purchases at one time, but you are correct that a tiny number of states do not.

CapnMac said:

Actually, there are Several States that have time limits on purchases--VA's now expired "1 gun a month" rule being an example. The several States that require a Pistol Purchase Permit are unlikely to issue those n multiples as well.

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I forgot about Virginia. As for the states with pistol purchase permits, IIRC, one permit is good for any number of pistols as long as they're purchased before the permit expires.

Rule3 said:

Interesting post.

So if by chance the ATF comes knocking at your door asking about multiple guns purchases. Would you say, no comment without my lawyer present?
So please leave??????

Do they need a warrant??

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They legally can't do anything beyond engage in a voluntary conversation with you. Unless there's probable cause to believe you're planning on doing harm to anyone or to sell those handguns illegally, they have no grounds for a warrant.

Rule3 said:

Of course this is only if you have nothing to hide or did anything illegal.

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Just because you've done nothing wrong doesn't mean they can't make things up out of thin air. Talking to law enforcement when under suspicion is always a no-no, just ask a lawyer.

Elkins45 said:

Totally goofy question: what if you drove the “gun bus” into a parking lot, jacked it up on blocks, removed the wheels and stayed there for a couple of months?

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The FFL is issued to a specific premises that has an address. If a current FFL did the above he wouldn't be at a gun show or at his licensed premises.
But drive that bus to a parking lot, THEN apply for an FFL at that address and if it meets zoning and all city/county/state requirements then yes, they'll issue an FFL.
But temporarily? Nope.

Second goofy question: could an FFL deliver a gun to someone’s home if they had previously completed the transaction at their legitimate place of business?

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No.

CherokeeGunslinger said:

As for the states with pistol purchase permits, IIRC, one permit is good for any number of pistols

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Certainly not the case in NJ; Permit good for one handgun only and limit of one every thirty days. Only one of many reasons I left that hell-hole.

Elkins45 said:

Totally goofy question: what if you drove the “gun bus” into a parking lot, jacked it up on blocks, removed the wheels and stayed there for a couple of months?

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You would be hard pressed to find a parking lot where you can setup shop for a long term. Some places like Wal-mart don't even like truckers parking in the lot for more than one night. And if they say go, you have to otherwise you face a trespassing charge. Even if you did find a place to stay, like one of those pop up firework stands, your FFL application would have to be that address. No adding the wheels back on to setup shop town over without applying for a new or updating your FFL.