Just how hard is hard? (Revolver brass extraction)

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barnfrog

barnfrog

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I've seen "hard extraction" as an indication of over pressure when testing revolver reloads. Last week I ran a quick ladder of .357 loads with 125 grain JHPs over 8.0 to 9.5 grains of Unique in my Ruger Blackhawk. On the first group with 8.0 grains of powder, all but one shell dropped out of the chamber due to the force of gravity. By the last group, all six empties had to be pushed out with the ejector but it certainly wasn't what I would call "difficult" to get them out of the cylinder. Obviously there's an ejector on the gun for a reason, so just needing to tap them out is probably not reason to worry.

So other than "hard," how would you describe the amount of force needed to remove empty shells that would indicate excessive pressure? I'm not that worried about this particular bunch of loads, but eventually I am going to be developing some full house loads with H110 and I don't want to push the safety limits.
 
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On a Blackhawk with reasonably clean cylinders, you'll know when you have stiff ejection as it will be difficult to eject using the ejector rod. If you have to put the ejector rod button on the corner of the bench and push to get the empties out, you're probably loaded too high. But I've never really had any issues with Blackhawks and ejection at max loads from a manual.
 
If you have difficulty pushing on the ejector button to get the case out and have to use a tool or your thumb to help force them out ... then it's too hard .
The best thing to do is shoot some factory 357 magnum ammo and see how they extract .
Also keep a few to look at primer condition ... good to compare with your handloads .
Gary
 
Good question. Dealing with perceived values is always a hard thing. My “difficult” might seem pretty easy to you and someone else’s “stuck” is just difficult to me. To quantify it really isn’t that practical because of the differences in cylinders. I’d say if it takes more force than a self-loading action - like an M1 carbine or Winchester 1907 - could generate, then it’s too hard. Both of those actions are extracting cases similar to a .357, one using gas and the other blowback. I would also suggest if extraction/ejection requires tapping the rod against the case, as opposed to a single, smooth stroke, even if it’s “hard,” then something is wrong with the case, cylinder or load. Does that sound reasonable?
 
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GeoDudeFlorida said:
Good question. Dealing with perceived values is always a hard thing. My “difficult” might seem pretty easy to you and someone else’s “stuck” is just difficult to me. To quantify it really isn’t that practical because of the differences in cylinders. I’d say if it takes more force than a self-loading action - like an M1 carbine or Winchester 1907 - could generate, then it’s too hard. Both of those actions are extracting cases similar to a .357, one using gas and the other blowback. I would also suggest if extraction/ejection requires tapping the rod against the case, as opposed to a single, smooth stroke, even if it’s “hard,” then something is wrong with the case, cylinder or load. Does that sound reasonable?
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Yes, it does sound reasonable, but my use of the word "tap" may have connoted something different to you than I intended. I didn't have to repeatedly hit them with the ejector. Rather, when the gun was held with the barrel pointing up, a single tap with the ejector would induce about half of the shells to fall out the rest of the way on their own. The other half had to be pushed out, but it was a smooth action to do so.
 
barnfrog said:
Yes, it does sound reasonable, but my use of the word "tap" may have connoted something different to you than I intended. I didn't have to repeatedly hit them with the ejector. Rather, when the gun was held with the barrel pointing up, a single tap with the ejector would induce about half of the shells to fall out the rest of the way on their own. The other half had to be pushed out, but it was a smooth action to do so.
Click to expand...
True enough. And that’s the problem with strictly written, time delayed communication. I meant tap as in repeatedly and with gusto.
 
It is a comparative evaluation just like feeling for something different when sizing a case. Once you size 1000 of the same cases one that feels different is a sign something is probably wrong. You shoot a revolver often you have a baseline on what normal is. More effort to extract than the baseline is an extraction indicator.
 
Individual opinions on what constitutes "sticky" extraction is one of the reasons why extraction isn't a very good pressure guide. And as others have mentioned, extraction can also be affected by things like powder fouling, carbon rings, metal finish, etc. It's entirely possible to have a safe load with sticky extraction, and it's also possible to have an overpressure load which falls free of the chamber.

For my money, chances are that working up to the book maximum while observing the usual pressure signs will work fine. The fellow chasing maximum performance really ought to get himself a chronograph which, aside from actual pressure measuring gauges, is the best pressure-management tool available to the handloader.
 
My "easy" at 40 yrs old is now my "hard" at 75. Hard to say what is hard for you, but, clean the cylinders and try again. For extracting extra heavy loaded brass it may take from moderate finger pressure to "mallet/2x4" force...

And as 38 Special mentioned, extraction can vary greatly with several different factors. I once made an "over pressure" 357 load, partially on purpose and partially by mistake. 1.5 gr over max of True Blue under a 158 gr SWC. Fired 6 rounds in Taurus 357 and blew all 6 primers, they fell out when I opened the cylinder and all cases ejected with a little more than gravity, normally...
 
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Well used Nickel plated cases may extract harder. They spring back less then brass, after firing. This is using the same loading. Same brand.

Hard extraction/over pressure is when the cylinder is removed from gun, placed on wood blocks & brass is driven out with a steel rod & hammer.
Seen it when the 45 colt in the BH first became available. Three guys & 3 guns, chronograph using the old copper wire/cardboard screens. Cast bullets with Unique. They crazy. Not I.
 
bluetopper said:
If you're at published maximum data or below you will be fine. Dirty chambers are one culprit for sticky cases.
Click to expand...

Not always. I have some revolvers with tight throats and loading to max levels in some books, means the cases need to be driven out with a dowel, even with the chambers clean and polished. . Sticky extraction to me, means it's time to back down if the chambers are not dirty or rough.
 
I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carbine and when it was new, I have two cylinders that the extractor rod wouldn't even push the empty our of the cylinder, had to use a dowel and a mallet to get them out. I contacted Ruger and they told me what to do. Then I went to the Auto Parts store and bought some valve lapping compound. I put the compound on a bore mop and used 180 compound first and then 220 compound and now the casings just fall out like the other four casings do. That is what they told me that they do, so if you want to save some shipping costs use valve lapping compound and it works.
 
A revolver should be able to shoot a published maximum load and you not have to drive out brass with a rod. If you have to, you have a problem.
 
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