AR-15 Article: Some Won't Like It, But....

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mavracer said:
First he did say barely.
Second I can disassemble the bolt and replace the firing pin or remove the entire fire control group in an AR with nothing more than a bullet
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Is that a good thing? I suppose if you've got nothing else to do it with, it might be. But if you don't have any tools, do you have spare parts or a cleaning kit with you? What would be the advantage to being able to do that with a bullet?
 
d2wing said:
How many firearms can the average person assemble at home with a minimum of tools and experience from just parts? And easily repair at home as well.
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I have no idea, but probably zero, if we're talking about the average person. I suppose a prepper might be able to do that with an AR, if they had the parts and knowledge. But it'd be preferable to not need spare parts in the first place. Everything breaks eventually of course, but other than parts which are designed to be replaced at regular intervals, such as springs, I'm not sure how much benefit it is that it's relatively easy to assemble an AR from components.
 
redcon1 said:
I think the modern AR15 represents the pinnacle of the evolution of this weapon platform.
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I think many feel as you do. I don't. I think from a user perspective, they're pretty terrible and not at all intuitive. They shoot fine, but it's a convoluted design to use, in my opinion.
 
WrongHanded said:
I think many feel as you do.
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Many feel that way because it’s intuitively obvious.
Others use data to come to that conclusion (eg the total domination in competitions that focus on speed such as uspsa, and the domination in competitions that focus on accuracy from non-benchrest positions like CMP and NRA high power. Heck, they even reduced the size of the scoring rings because of the AR)

but I’m curious what rifle you think is more ergonomic
 
WrongHanded said:
I think many feel as you do. I don't. I think from a user perspective, they're pretty terrible and not at all intuitive. They shoot fine, but it's a convoluted design to use, in my opinion.
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Forgive me if you’ve already answered, and I’ve missed it in this thread. What aspects of the AR do you find to not be intuitive?

If it’s a left handed issue, do you think items such as ambi charging handles and ambi safeties could help? If it’s length of pull, have you ever worked with an AR that has an adjustable stock?

Not scratching ya… just curious where it falls short for you is all.
 
WrongHanded said:
I have no idea, but probably zero, if we're talking about the average person. I suppose a prepper might be able to do that with an AR, if they had the parts and knowledge. But it'd be preferable to not need spare parts in the first place. Everything breaks eventually of course, but other than parts which are designed to be replaced at regular intervals, such as springs, I'm not sure how much benefit it is that it's relatively easy to assemble an AR from components.
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Honestly, you keep making the same circular argument. You would prefer to not need spare parts, yet 'everything breaks eventually of course.' In the world of parts availability, one is none, and two is one... that's why I have 3 Kahr CW9's (my basic carry piece.) That's why I have, more or less, enough AR parts in the junk box to pretty much build another AR. That's why I carry a spare tire on my truck, and a can of Fix-a-Flat when I travel.

You keep mentioning the prepper part... if you are a prepper, and intend to include firearms in your preparations, you had better learn about what you have, how to maintain it, and how to fix it if something doesn't work, whether it's an AR, a Glock, an AK, or a flintlock rifle. Just like solar panels and a battery storage system. Just like holding tanks and irrigation. Just like food preparation and storage. Just like vehicle maintenance, be it a motorcycle, a tractor, a pickup, or a bicycle. If you are a prepper, and you can't field strip an AR for cleaning and maintenance, you might want to rethink your idea of being a prepper.

Taking the AR out of the equation... if I was going to rely on a firearm as my sole weapon for defense, hunting, or whatever, I'd darned sure learn how to maintain it... whether it was a bolt action rifle, a pump shotgun, a revolver, or semiauto pistol.

We got it... you don't like AR's. Which is fine. Really. I don't like Glocks, and it's OK, too. I think they are a marvel of engineering and excellent pistols... for someone else. This is (still) America... if you don't like AR's, there are about a gazillion other types of firearm platforms out there to choose from.
 
The AR15 is one of the most common rifles in the US, almost certainly the most common semi-auto.

That means parts and ammo for it are going to be available for longer than any other rifle in a grid down situation.

That alone is reason why you should own one.
 
WrongHanded said:
Is that a good thing? I suppose if you've got nothing else to do it with, it might be. But if you don't have any tools, do you have spare parts or a cleaning kit with you? What would be the advantage to being able to do that with a bullet?
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You're missing the point, the point is it's easy to replace small parts without tools. Try replacing the firing pin on a bolt gun in the field. And yes I have spare parts kits and apparently I'm not the only one that buy them cause every company that makes AR parts has them for sale.
 
Charlie98 said:
Honestly, you keep making the same circular argument. You would prefer to not need spare parts, yet 'everything breaks eventually of course.' In the world of parts availability, one is none, and two is one... that's why I have 3 Kahr CW9's (my basic carry piece.) That's why I have, more or less, enough AR parts in the junk box to pretty much build another AR. That's why I carry a spare tire on my truck, and a can of Fix-a-Flat when I travel.

You keep mentioning the prepper part... if you are a prepper, and intend to include firearms in your preparations, you had better learn about what you have, how to maintain it, and how to fix it if something doesn't work, whether it's an AR, a Glock, an AK, or a flintlock rifle. Just like solar panels and a battery storage system. Just like holding tanks and irrigation. Just like food preparation and storage. Just like vehicle maintenance, be it a motorcycle, a tractor, a pickup, or a bicycle. If you are a prepper, and you can't field strip an AR for cleaning and maintenance, you might want to rethink your idea of being a prepper.

Taking the AR out of the equation... if I was going to rely on a firearm as my sole weapon for defense, hunting, or whatever, I'd darned sure learn how to maintain it... whether it was a bolt action rifle, a pump shotgun, a revolver, or semiauto pistol.

We got it... you don't like AR's. Which is fine. Really. I don't like Glocks, and it's OK, too. I think they are a marvel of engineering and excellent pistols... for someone else. This is (still) America... if you don't like AR's, there are about a gazillion other types of firearm platforms out there to choose from.
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It's not a circular argument. It's directly in response to this idea that there's some huge benefit in owning a rifle that's so "easy" to work on. Not everyone is going to feel their time is well spent learning how to replace any and all parts on an AR. In fact I bet that's true for the vast majority of people who own them.

I keep mentioning the prepper part because it was in the title of the article. You do realize that some people who are preppers focus far more on resources and storage than they do on firearms, right? And that new people join the "prepper" community every day, possibly having never owned a firearm before. When a person decides in their mind that a "prepper" is this thing, or better know how to do that, they're failing to grasp that not everyone who preps will meet that specific ideal.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in telling me that it's okay that I don't like ARs. I know perfectly well it okay. I was originally asking about an article. I have accept the vast majority of the thoughtful and well explained criticism of that article. But since doing that, there have been some posts which include content I disagree with, and I'm responding to those points. That seems reasonable to me. Hopefully it seems that way to you as well. If not, we can discuss your reasons. :)
 
taliv said:
Many feel that way because it’s intuitively obvious.
Others use data to come to that conclusion (eg the total domination in competitions that focus on speed such as uspsa, and the domination in competitions that focus on accuracy from non-benchrest positions like CMP and NRA high power. Heck, they even reduced the size of the scoring rings because of the AR)

but I’m curious what rifle you think is more ergonomic
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I'm happy to answer that. But before I do, let's remember the context: the article stated "for preppers". Not for gun enthusiasts, or sport shooters, competitors, or anything of the kind. It was written (however poorly) with a particular focus in mind, and that was a practical firearm for people to rely on in adverse times.

Most people (about 9 in 10) are right handed. Of those people, the vast majority are strongly right hand dominant. They live in a right handed world, and use their right hand for almost all one handed tasks. The left is used primarily for holding and carrying. If you don't believe me, feel free to research that for yourself.

So I believe rifle designed to be run with the right hand, where the left is only used for supporting the rifle is preferable and more ergonomic. The Mini 14 is but one example of this. Most of the commonly owned and available semi auto rifles are designed this way.
 
md7 said:
Forgive me if you’ve already answered, and I’ve missed it in this thread. What aspects of the AR do you find to not be intuitive?

If it’s a left handed issue, do you think items such as ambi charging handles and ambi safeties could help? If it’s length of pull, have you ever worked with an AR that has an adjustable stock?

Not scratching ya… just curious where it falls short for you is all.
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The T shaped bolt handle coming out of the rear of the receiver, requiring the user to move the rifle away from them (or perform a very awkward action) is not good ergonomics, or intuitive. It not being reciprocation is obviously necessary given it's position directly in front of the user's face. But it then also requires a forward assist, which is on the right side of the gun. And it requires (without being incredibly impractical) a bolt release level, which is then located on the opposite side from the forward assist.

That's three different locations, for 3 different parts, that perform 3 different actions. A charging handle directly attached to the bolt carrier would have been a far more simplistic, elegant, ergonomic, and intuitive design feature. All three actions in one place, located in a place that makes sense.
 
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WrongHanded said:
I have no idea, but probably zero, if we're talking about the average person. I suppose a prepper might be able to do that with an AR, if they had the parts and knowledge. But it'd be preferable to not need spare parts in the first place. Everything breaks eventually of course, but other than parts which are designed to be replaced at regular intervals, such as springs, I'm not sure how much benefit it is that it's relatively easy to assemble an AR from components.
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Oh boy, Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? Off your meds? I was referring to the typical gun owner. Not a half wit that can't see the object of being able to fix your own rifle without the help of a gunsmith and special tools. I would consider that essential to a prepper and contrary to your opinion. Most people are not that stupid. Anyone can do it with either commonly available instructions. Minimal training by the military or a friend, or just figure it out. It's not hard for most people. I gather you are an exception. Or you think everyone is stupid. Do you know that smart people prepare for eventualities in advance? Beyond your thought process is it? How many spare rifles are you willing to have in a prepper situation? In a mobile situation maybe a few spare parts can keep your rifle going as long as you live no matter how hard you use and abuse it. This is something most gun owners know.
 
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d2wing said:
Oh boy, Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? Off your meds? I was referring to the typical gun owner. Not a half wit that can't see the object of being able to fix your own rifle without the help of a gunsmith and special tools. I would consider that essential to a prepper and contrary to your opinion. Most people are not that stupid. Anyone can do it with either commonly available instructions. Minimal training by the military or a friend, or just figure it out. It's not hard for most people. I gather you are an exception.
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The problem with what you're saying here is that "commonly available instructions" are only common when they're actually available. There's all sorts of things a person can do with instruction or tuition, but if they don't aquire that knowledge ahead of time and then end up in adverse circumstances where it is unavailable to them, it's neither common nor available. And that's not just true for guns, it's true for everything. Preparing for everything is a tall order. When most people buy gear based on a reputation for reliability, they typically don't then learn how to repair that piece of gear and buy a bunch of spare parts for it. Why? Because it has a reputation for being reliable.

And there's no need for this:
d2wing said:
Off your meds?
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As an owner of a Remington 742, being able to repair or replace all parts easily at home is indeed a big advantage. Some rifles are totally useless if they wear out or break. Very unlikely to be repairable even by a gunsmith. I don't know what I would do with a Mini-14 or AK if a major part breaks.
 
WrongHanded said:
The problem with what you're saying here is that "commonly available instructions" are only common when they're actually available. There's all sorts of things a person can do with instruction or tuition, but if they don't aquire that knowledge ahead of time and then end up in adverse circumstances where it is unavailable to them, it's neither common nor available. And that's not just true for guns, it's true for everything. Preparing for everything is a tall order. When most people buy gear based on a reputation for reliability, they typically don't then learn how to repair that piece of gear and buy a bunch of spare parts for it. Why? Because it has a reputation for being reliable.

And there's no need for this:
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Then they are not a "prepper" are they. Prepper seems to connotate being prepared. You are a waste of time. Done feeding the troll.
 
d2wing said:
As an owner of a Remington 742, being able to repair or replace all parts easily at home is indeed a big advantage. Some rifles are totally useless if they wear out or break. Very unlikely to be repairable even by a gunsmith. I don't know what I would do with a Mini-14 or AK if a major part breaks.
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I understand where you are coming from. When a person gets on a gun forum and asks "what rifle should I get for SHTF?", most of the responses are "get an AR." But those responses do not say "also get this list of spare parts and learn how to install them".

If a firearms enthusiast wants to keep spare parts for a rifle that is easy to work on, I think that's great. I have some spare parts for some of my guns. But most people don't do that. So I just don't see it as a major benefit. You feel differently. That's okay.
 
d2wing said:
Then they are not a "prepper" are they. Prepper seems to connotate being prepared. You are a waste of time.
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Why are they not preppers? What if they have bulk food storage, and water, a generator with fuel reserves, maybe some chickens in the back yard, a small vegetable plot. Do they have to have spare parts for the generator to be considered a "prepper" to you? I suppose they need to know how to do an emergency appendectomy in field conditions too.
 
d2wing said:
As an owner of a Remington 742, being able to repair or replace all parts easily at home is indeed a big advantage. Some rifles are totally useless if they wear out or break. Very unlikely to be repairable even by a gunsmith. I don't know what I would do with a Mini-14 or AK if a major part breaks.
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For guns that I am going to depend on, I have more than one copy. It cuts out a lot of concern about buying spare parts, learning how to gunsmith it, or finding a gunsmith.
 
I'm neither a Green Beret nor a lover of the AR-15/m4 platform but I am a skeptic of a lot of what was in this article. It sounds like a guy who has an agenda and does not read like an academic article. Because of course it's not it's an opinion piece. It's an opinion piece written at a 9th or 10th grade level that doesn't cite any academic research or use any data that isn't purely anecdotal. Even in an undergrad class at college this paper would not stand up to scrutiny. If you want to prove a point or an opinion you got to do better than that.

I had very very few issues with my m4 in the military and that thing was beat to piss. We loaded up 30 round mags with 30 rounds and had no problems. We shot thousands upon thousands of rounds never had a problem. Even took mine to combat still never had a problem. The rifles we did have stoppages with no problems with or almost always Desert Storm era M16s. Now I probably didn't see the kind of combat a Green Beret with 8 years down range did so I'll give him that, but eh.....

For the average person AR-15 parts are everywhere, it's one of the easiest rifles to mount an optic onto and it's one of the easier rifles to take down and put back together in my opinion. There's very little recoil and very little weight for the average person average prepper you might want to call him it's an excellent firearm and I'm not even a fan of it. There isn't a rifle in existence that doesn't have some kind of issues. With that said I think it's a good idea for the average civilian who feels they need to own a rifle for **** hit the fan sort of situation to have a rifle they can shoot well and that they can get parts for anywhere. That is the ar-15.
 
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WrongHanded said:
You specifically mentioned a receiver and a barrel. Those aren't typically considered spare parts.

Sure some spare parts are a good thing to have, but as I mentioned up thread, not all preppers are gun people or particularly mechanically inclined. It seems unreasonable to apply that concept - of spare parts and the knowledge to install them - onto every tool or piece of equipment a prepper may own. Again, a backup seems like a much simpler option. Particularly if you consider a barrel and a receiver "spare parts", because if they are then what part of the firearm isn't? Might as well buy a complete set of spare parts that already configured into a rifle.
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Different kind of things get broken when you are fighting and the rifle is spending all its time "in the field".

I've heard people say that iron sights on an AR aren't really needed because modern optics are so reliable. I get what they are saying but I've known a guy who got his Aimpoint shot off his rifle in a firefight.

Barrels can get damaged pretty easy from debris or excessive moisture during firing, falls, etc..
 
WrongHanded said:
The problem with what you're saying here is that "commonly available instructions" are only common when they're actually available. There's all sorts of things a person can do with instruction or tuition, but if they don't aquire that knowledge ahead of time and then end up in adverse circumstances where it is unavailable to them, it's neither common nor available. And that's not just true for guns, it's true for everything. Preparing for everything is a tall order. When most people buy gear based on a reputation for reliability, they typically don't then learn how to repair that piece of gear and buy a bunch of spare parts for it. Why? Because it has a reputation for being reliable.

And there's no need for this:
Click to expand...
I didn't like my first AR, I let it go and dint really lose any sleep over it. If I'm being honest it felt the way you describe, not intuitive. I believe it's because basically every other gun (that I did like) and was familiar with (like the AK, M1A, 10/22, Mini-14/30, Bolt Actions, etc) had levers on the right side of the gun and charged in a similar fashion to one another, which was more intuitive and familiar. I've since changed my mind about the AR. I don't know how long it took me to get over the controls, it wasn't long I can tell you that.

I got my 2nd AR knowing full well that I hadn't parted with my first AR with any love lost but I considered a few factors when I decided to make it my primary, go to. 1st was that I knew that if millions of other civilian choosers and military members could make effective use of it, I was certainly coordinated and skilled enough to do the same and be good with it. 2nd was parts availability, 3rd was the availability of common/interchangeable parts (from a "prepping" standpoint I guess) and the ease of install (no real gunsmithing skills required to keep the thing going for lifetimes), 4th was the modularity and 5th was the affordability and 6th was the availability of (then) cheap, very effective, surplus and commercial ammunition, 7th was the very cheap $8 USGI/Magpul magazines and 8th, perhaps the single most important factor when choosing anything, is looking cool while you're using it. :thumbup::D

It doesn't take long to become pretty fast and coordinated with an AR.

I think alot of other people probably feel the same way for the same reasons, from where I stand no other weapon shares these attributes at quite the same level. Granted, I understand people who don't like them because they don't have soul, like a Garand or M1A or something.......
 
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WrongHanded said:
If you don't see it, I guess you don't see it. And the bolt gun comparison is a big stretch of the imagination from my perspective. I cannot think of a rifle design commonly owned by civilians that is more complicated from a user perspective than the AR. If complicated isn't a relative term, I don't know how else you'd apply it.
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Ever open up a lever action?

Or a revolver?

Those are complicated, intricate, tightly fitted, working pieces of art.

AR's are very simple by comparison to me.
 
C-grunt said:
Different kind of things get broken when you are fighting and the rifle is spending all its time "in the field".

I've heard people say that iron sights on an AR aren't really needed because modern optics are so reliable. I get what they are saying but I've known a guy who got his Aimpoint shot off his rifle in a firefight.

Barrels can get damaged pretty easy from debris or excessive moisture during firing, falls, etc..
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Replacing broken parts is a good thing. I'm not suggesting it isn't. I'm not suggesting that things can't break, or that in normal life those broken parts should not be replaced. If someone already has an AR, likes it, knows how to replace parts and keeps spares, that great. Good for them. Keep that rifle. Do your thing.

But for a budding prepper (who is therefore looking to actually purchase a rifle) the ease of find and replacing parts on an AR, isn't much of a benefit unless they actually want to take the time to learn to do that. And not everyone does, because they've got a whole lot of other stuff to think about, that require both money and attention.

DustyGmt said:
I didn't like my first AR, I let it go and dint really lose any sleep over it. If I'm being honest it felt the way you describe, not intuitive. I believe it's because basically every other gun (that I did like) and was familiar with (like the AK, M1A, 10/22, Mini-14/30, Bolt Actions, etc) had levers on the right side of the gun and charged in a similar fashion to one another, which was more intuitive and familiar. I've since changed my mind about the AR. I don't know how long it took me to get over the controls, it wasn't long I can tell you that.
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And this right here is why I think people who want a rifle as a tool, but don't really enjoy firearms like we do, might be better served with something other than an AR.

Can a person learn to replace parts? Sure. Can people adapt to using the controls? Absolutely. Does everyone want to put that much effort into learning something they don't enjoy? Not really.
 
gotboostvr said:
Ever open up a lever action?

Or a revolver?

Those are complicated, intricate, tightly fitted, working pieces of art.

AR's are very simple by comparison to me.
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Yep. And I don't recommend those to would-be preppers, or anyone else who's not a firearms enthusiast, for exactly that reason.
 
C-grunt said:
Different kind of things get broken when you are fighting and the rifle is spending all its time "in the field".

I've heard people say that iron sights on an AR aren't really needed because modern optics are so reliable. I get what they are saying but I've known a guy who got his Aimpoint shot off his rifle in a firefight.

Barrels can get damaged pretty easy from debris or excessive moisture during firing, falls, etc..
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And most electronic sights won't survive an EMP blast either. So the is yet another reason to have backup iron sights. All of my AR rifles that are for SHTF situations have iron sights for that reason. Plus we both know from personal experience that iron sights are way more "GI proof" than any electronic sights.

For those that wonder why I keep bringing up things being GI Proof, if it will survive being used by a GI it will work plenty well for peppers and other civilian uses.
 
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