True advantages of a progressive press for rifle rounds.

bihj said:

Do people really trim every time the brass is reloaded???

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Shooting 223 out of a semi auto, absolutely.
The brass goes everywhere so you can be picking up someone else's brass.
All it takes is 1 round that has a neck too long to blow up a gun or you.

I process my brass in a way that it's impossible to end up with a piece of brass that is too long.
All my fired 223 goes in a bucket and when it's full I process it.

I use the 2 pass method that has been described several times above.

Shooter14854 said:

Hey all, I’ve been reloading a few years now on my lee single stage press and am considering purchasing one of the many progressive presses out there.

My question is how much faster is a progressive press really. If I’m not mistaken I still need to pull the case out after sizing to trim, chamfer, debur and clean the primer pocket. That’s usually the longest/most tedious part of the process. Is there anyway to get around these steps with a progressive press? Thanks for the help! I’m just looking for real feedback if the $600 investment is worth it or not. I currently use a Lyman express case trimmer and a Lyman gen6 powder system which speeds things up quite a bit.

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That all depends on how much money you want to throw at it. The general term of "progressive" can cover just about anything from a couple hundred rounds an hour to a few thousand rounds an hour. In general, it's magnitudes faster than a single stage, not even comparable. Depending on the press itself, you may be trading some quality for quantity. And yes, you can get around most of what you are talking about with a modern 10 station process in line capable press. All about how much you want to spend.

Obturation said:

I deprime & size on a lee APP. fast as I can pull it. It is also a single.

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If you’re loading and unloading each case by hand I can’t see how that would be as fast as an auto indexing progressive press with a case feeder.

Nature Boy said:

If you’re loading and unloading each case by hand I can’t see how that would be as fast as an auto indexing progressive press with a case feeder.

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App has a case feeder.

Obturation said:

App has a case feeder.

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makes sense

The age old question...... load rifle on a progressive press

I think it is the way to go for average ammo, by that statement 600 yards and less. If your into long range I can't provide advice as I have only shot 600 yards and no further.

The biggest issue you will experience is powder drop variance, that is combated by a measure such as a Harrells Precision measure.

Now the accuracy is in your dies so use what ever you feel is accurate.

Process all brass off press and then prime and load on the progressive.

You should be able to get over all lengths to with .001 inch this way.

If I didn't already have progressive presses I would just stick with a single stage and run it.

KY DAN said:

The age old question...... load rifle on a progressive press

I think it is the way to go for average ammo, by that statement 600 yards and less. If your into long range I can't provide advice as I have only shot 600 yards and no further.

The biggest issue you will experience is powder drop variance, that is combated by a measure such as a Harrells Precision measure.

Now the accuracy is in your dies so use what ever you feel is accurate.

Process all brass off press and then prime and load on the progressive.

You should be able to get over all lengths to with .001 inch this way.

If I didn't already have progressive presses I would just stick with a single stage and run it.

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You can make precision rifle loads on a progressive press, you just have to trickle up to your intended charge weight as an extra step. If you don’t believe me ask David Tubb and John Widden. Both load on a Dillon, are past national champion rifle shooters at 1,000 yards and make their livelihoods off of the sport.

Nature Boy said:

You can make precision rifle loads on a progressive press, you just have to trickle up to your intended charge weight as an extra step. If you don’t believe me ask David Tubb and John Widden. Both load on a Dillon, are past national champion rifle shooters at 1,000 yards and make their livelihoods off of the sport.

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NOTICE what I said, I DO NOT HAVE experience with any distance shooting therfore I DID NOT OFFER ANY ADVICE REGARDING DISTANCE SHOOTING. I offered normal rifle ammo advice, you know minute of beer cans and whitetail deers, blasting ammo.

Hitting a 2 inch circle at 1000 or more yards is not normal rifle nor ammo requirements.

You can use the progressive press to pursue easy accomplishments all the way to modern day amazement.

I have been loading all my rifle ammo on my Dillon 650XL for about 30 years now. The Dillon press and Dillon powder measure have always been sufficient for my needs. I do not trim my cases every time, I trim every third firing of a case in a particular rifle. It is possible to set up a 650 head with a decapping die and the Dillon power case trimmer on one head. The power case trimmer uses trimming dies unique to each round. The trim die neck sizes the case while it is being trimmed. This does reduce the number of times a case has to go through the press in my setup which saves me time.

What cartridges are we talking about?
How much do you shoot?
What are your accuracy expectations?

When reloading 300 Blackout I absolutely stick to my Hornady Lock N Load. I can get some pretty good ammo from it and can knock out 100 rounds in 20 minutes. For .30-06 I usually use my single stage, but when doing 20 to 40 rounds at a time it's no big deal if it takes a little extra time.

edwardware said:

It's only faster if you're running large batches. It's far slower to setup, and requires excruciating attention because you need to watch 3-4 things at once (vs a single operation at a time). If you're humming along with the radio while running a progressive, you aren't paying enough attention.

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That may depend on the loader used. My older RCBS progressive did take a lot of concentration to make sure it was running smoothly. It is a good loader, but a bit fussy. One of the reasons I went with Dillon when I upgraded was its reputation for not needing many adjustments once dialed in. And that has proven to be true for me. On my 650 and 1100, I've added a powder check/lock out die and they just crank out the rounds while requiring very little attention.

But if I were after very long range accuracy, I'd use some kind of trickler, etc for the powder drop. It's accurate enough for 100yd MOA groups out of my AR15, which I'm happy with.

Shooter14854 said:

trim

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Chamber length can be measured. Most are about .010" longer then the maximum SAAMI trim length. For my 243 Win. target rifle, trim length is checked after every sizing. The length is maintained at the maximum.

It's best to follow SAAMI's maximum & trim as needed. The extra .010" chamber is what I call a "safety zone" , just in case a piece of brass is missed when checking trim length.

For high mix loading, I find anything under 50 rounds is faster on the single stage than on my lnl because of setup time. Most of my standard loads have a die box with preset dies and a dedicated measure. For those I generally run until the cases are full, 200-300 rounds these days, used to be 500 rounds. I use lee collet dies for neck sizing, along with body dies, so not much stretch.

Obturation said:

I only load on a single. Reason is, I control each step. I don't load cartridges I can buy cheap. I want to feel how each primer seats, I want to confirm each charge, I want to know I'm making the best I can. Not just pull the handle and hope I didn't just set up a squib that's going to blow my gun when it doesn't get charged or it gets double charged. I'll take heat for that comment, bring it.
Simple fact, progressively loaded rounds are not as good as loads that have been handled with care through each stage. If someone disagrees , I'd love for them to justify.

Turrets are great , same as a single with less set up. Progressives are great for blamo whamo range loads. If you want real precise cartridges or you load on the ragged edge of maximum there is no need for progressive . you can use a progressive as a turret in a way but at that point just get a turret . for plinking the progressive is fine , for anything that matters I don't think progressives are worth squat.

Just an opinion . quality over quantity is a thing, depends on which side of it you fall on.

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Have you ever used a progressive press? From you statement I would say no, us progressive press users just don't pull the handle in hopes we don't get a double charge or no charge, we can feel the primer seat and if so inclined confirm each powder charge.
Primer seating is done on the down stroke of most presses, it's the only operation, so there is control while seating.
It's fairly hard to double charge a case on a progressive and is akin to forgetting to move the powder funnel to the next case when charging by hand not to mention that most double charges will spill powder all over the shell plate. A light charge is usually due to operator error by not running the press handle a full stroke which also messes up other operations and is obvious when it happens.
Progressive loaded rounds might not be as good as single stage loaded rounds but that all depends on the level of care taken when reloading them. I don't load my hunting ammo on a progressive but then again I only keep 200 ish rounds loaded for my hunting calibers. I load buckets of 223 on a progressive and keep 1/2" to 1" groups at 100 yards out of an AR rifle which is fairly good. I can hit a 8" steel plate with mass produced 380,9mm,40 and 45 rounds at 100 yards off hand which I think is great for a pistol shooting progressive reloads loaded in batches of 1000, at 25 yards the same pistols and loads group 1/2" off hand. What more do I need?
Lets not forget that a progressive is great for mass case prep even when finishing the loading via single stage. I can size a pile of pistol or rifle brass in a hurry then powder by hand and seat bullets single stage if I so desire which I do when running a large batch of 223 rounds for the heavy barrel varmint rifles or when I acquired a pile of military 308 brass that I wanted to deprime and swage the primer pockets all at once.
But if one feels they don't have the aptitude to run a progressive press then it's probably best that they stick with a single stage press or just buy factory rounds.

Nature Boy said:

You can make precision rifle loads on a progressive press, you just have to trickle up to your intended charge weight as an extra step. If you don’t believe me ask David Tubb and John Widden. Both load on a Dillon, are past national champion rifle shooters at 1,000 yards and make their livelihoods off of the sport.

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I often find it funny to hear people that brag on having found a node that is forgiving to several tenths at several hundred yardsand then emphasize on the importance of charge weight accuracy to the hundredth, with no set distance goal.

Quote ; [can hit a 8" steel plate with mass produced 380,9mm,40 and 45 rounds at 100 yards off hand which I think is great for a pistol shooting progressive reloads]

I would love to see how you do that with any degree of repeatability.

AJC1 said:

I agree and disagree. I agree in that I practice what you preach. There are fully animated Dillon Presses that can make match quality ammunition. Eric Cortina, and f-class John both use I believe a totally tricked out 1050. They must have 10 grand in their setups, and they use an auto trickler to measure powder. Yes it is possible, I can't afford a Ferrari either.

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I seem to remember watching him loading with a bullet seating gizmo that shows just how much force is required to seat the bullet. He wants it the same each time. Perhaps that was just for the video, don't know.

I would think at the level those guys play that game at they want everything as exact as possible. One area they have zero control over is the brass itself. Sure a good company will likely have a product that will be as close at the same to the next....but.

And then to think, just how many rounds are these guys shooting, even in practice they are going to want things perfect...practice without perfect seems to me like a waste of time. Doing things different between practice and the match seems like a waste of time. And weighing charges and bullets, and checking internal volume on cases seems like something that you would want to do all the time as well.

I think they may use a progressive, but I have a feeling when they are weighing down to the .00x on powder and bullet weight they are not using a progressive. I have a feeling the people playing the game at lower levels might use a progressive as it is good enough.

I look at it like well, there are people that race a ferrari in F1, then there are people that race a small block chevy in the dirt, both are racers but I have a feeling that the Ferrari team is a little more exact.

Part 2.

What I think is people are so bound and determined to defend to the last inch their choice in their press.....why I have no idea whatsoever. So you will get people with very hard stands on why this is great. This seems to come into more and more as the price of their choice goes up and up. Their way is right and is the best way no matter what. No point in talking to these people.

OP. suggestion, buy what you can afford, if you can't afford what you want wait. Research your choices till you are blue in the face. Find out just how much things like tool heads cost and caliber conversion kits cost. Find out what your all in price is for what you shoot. If you find that acceptable then plop down your money. If it is not then look for something else and leave the people that say you must buy this or that.

For me a person that has more calibers then I do fingers and toes, and tend to shoot.....well all of them, there are some things that I just find as pure stupid.

Story time:

Couple months ago I wanted to buy a new trimmer, so I start looking. Now I have a top number to spend in mind, but also would be happy to spend less...I am a cheap bastage at heart.....but I want something good. So I start looking. What is the best....well everyone raves about the Guiard Trimmer. At $560 ok I will spend that money.....wait I need to spend an extra $50 for each caliber, and they don't have some of the odd things I enjoy, no 30 remington...well that is basically 30-30 will that work, nope but they can sell you a blank that you can machine.....oh, well this is quickly getting into the more trouble then worth to me. I am already over the cost of the machine in the different "adapters" for all the calibers....nope not the machine for me.

Point of that story is look on the internet for ideas, then research yourself and make your choice yourself, you will likely never find someone that hates his dillon, he spent way too much money to admit that it was a huge pain to setup and get running, and keep running. As you go down the $$ tree you will find more and more people saying bad things about it till you get to lee, and everyone likes to do to lee what happened to chris rock a couple nights ago.

Bottom line look here for basic ideas, be very suspect of anyone with an expensive setup that says it is great, be suspect of someone that says cheap stuff is garbage. Do your own research ask questions as many places as you can and then make your own decision.

Is a progressive faster? Yes, especially once you add something like a case feeder.
Is it accurate enough? Yes. Define your level of expected accuracy and then go after it
Do you need one? Thats up to you. I switch back and forth depending on the volume I shoot

There are way too many variables for just a quick answer here. Guys have been loading F-class stuff for years on a progressive using a powder thru funnel, and winning matches. If you want to load minute of deer or just blaster ammo with ball powder with a rotary powder drop, its orders of magnitude faster. Adding items like a case feeder and or bullet feeder make it even faster.

South Prairie Jim said:

Quote ; [can hit a 8" steel plate with mass produced 380,9mm,40 and 45 rounds at 100 yards off hand which I think is great for a pistol shooting progressive reloads]

I would love to see how you do that with any degree of repeatability.

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An 8" is a stretch, but we do it consistently on 1/2 IPSCs at a 100. With a red dot it becomes somewhat easier. We also do the 300 yard challenge with pistols on a full IPSC for fun some days. Once you figure out where you need to aim, and if the wind is behaving, its easy enough to get 2/3 of your shots on that target. Its good for a range bet amongst friends to find out who is buying the first round that night

jmorris said:

I often find it funny to hear people that brag on having found a node that is forgiving to several tenths at several hundred yardsand then emphasize on the importance of charge weight accuracy to the hundredth, with no set distance goal.

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Whether I’m driving on a two lane country road or an 8 lane super highway, it remains pertinent to attempt to drive in the middle of my lane.

The humor, for me, comes from the claim that charges from xx.1-xx.3 gn all shoot to the same point of aim but if you don’t load to xx.20 it all falls apart.

It’s the nonsensical part that is funny. Like Zucker/Abrahams movies.

jmorris said:

The humor, for me, comes from the claim that charges from xx.1-xx.3 gn all shoot to the same point of aim but if you don’t load to xx.20 it all falls apart.

It’s the nonsensical part that is funny. Like Zucker/Abrahams movies.

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My point is that your perception is incorrect - it’s not nonsensical. Maximizing our forgiveness is the name of the game.

Single variable tolerance control remains relevant in a multivariate system. As I said above - no matter how wide the road, it still benefits me to drive in the center of my lane. Throwing haphazardly - such as dropping rather than trickling - is akin to driving the old ‘73 GMC feed wagon we had on the farm when I was young. It took about a half turn on the wheel before it started steering, and such, keeping it between mustard and mayonnaise at 55mph was challenging - let alone trying to keep it in the center of the lane. Driving that truck on the county road between two of our farms included a half mile on a steep ditch with little to no shoulder, and a few relatively narrow bridges… the consequence of poor control away from the center of the lane was steep.

Another example: most PRS matches do not include more than 2-4 shots at targets smaller than 1moa. In theory then, a 1moa rifle can win any PRS match in the country - but they don’t, so none of us tolerate them. When I’m shooting a sub-MOA target at 500 yards while balanced on a grader tire, with a barrel which has ~300 rounds on it since the last cleaning, and might not have updated my ballistic engine between stages to account for the 800ft DA change and 8 degree temp increase since the last stage, as I’m left open to an error of a couple of tenths due to my own error, and maybe another couple of tenths due to the inexplicably sudden shift to “your carbon ring decided to matter,” at least I can take heart that I won’t have an extra tenth, an extra 4” of elevation trying to barge into my trajectory.

We’re not shooting exacting data from our barrels - we’re shooting compounding errors. We can’t control all of them - so we tightly control those we can. I can’t always choose the condition of the shoulder, and can’t always choose the lane position of neighboring motorists, so I drive in the middle of my lane.

jmorris said:

The humor, for me, comes from the claim that charges from xx.1-xx.3 gn all shoot to the same point of aim but if you don’t load to xx.20 it all falls apart.
It’s the nonsensical part that is funny. Like Zucker/Abrahams movies.

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They either write or talk that stuff to convince themselves, or to present themselves as really knowledgeable and important. I mostly keep my mouth shut, because I don't know that much, or care to learn. I use a progressive for another reason. I don't compete......so I don't care about minute of precision. But I do care about not wanting to spend all my time loading one at a time. I like to shoot, but not that much. I do like to reload....but again not that much. I know....heresy....

Progressive presses inherently have ONE differentiating principle of design which sets them apart from single stage or turret presses - automation. The goal of this automation can be twofold 1) increase production speed 2) reduce hand moving - which in itself typically influences overall cycle time, considerably.

We choose our battles here - it’s a balancing act of how much automation am I able to employ without compromising the quality of the ammunition. For example:

1) I abhor the wasted time of secondary tumbling to remove case lube - so I don’t. I use Hornady One Shot and only tumble once per firing. That significantly reduces my total cycle time.

2) I size and expand separately, which on a single stage press, this means an extra trip in and out of the press - which means more hand moving and would increase my cycle time. Using a turret press, I can cut my hand moving in half, which is OVERWHELMINGLY the greatest contributor to loading time at the bench. Using a progressive press with a case feeder & collator, I can daftly pull the ram handle virtually as fast as I want, rather than attentively placing the cases in and out of a single stage TWICE and pulling the handle twice as many times… A guy COULD prime on press, and even trim on press at that time too.

3) I choose to decap before cleaning, and choose to clean, so running a progressive press with a case feeder for the single function of decapping SLIGHTLY speeds up that step, but also significantly reduces my hand movement as labor investment - I just pull the arm, not load and unload the cases into and from the press. (Lee APP is great for this, in absence of a true progressive press).

4) Using a Giraud trimmer with an amp mate automated case handler and a case collator, trimming off of the press is automated, which SLIGHTLY reduces cycle time for that step, but significantly reduces (relatively eliminates) hand movement investment for that step.

So picking my battles to balance speed with precision, and reduce my overall labor input into the process: decap on an auto press with case feeder/collator, wet tumble, dry, One Shot Lube, Size and expand on progressive with feeder/collator, trim on power trimmer with case collator and automated case handler, prime, charge, seat, bang, repeat.

I REALLY would like to have an automated means of traying and boxing cases. I spend a lot of time in process just racking cases - I rack to spray after cleaning, to charge after priming, and to box after seating, so there’s 3 instances where I handle every case, one at a time, with requirement for precision hand movement, and I’d really, really like to automate those steps.

Varminterror said:

My point is that your perception is incorrect - it’s not nonsensical. Maximizing our forgiveness is the name of the game.

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If they are playing a game and focusing on things that are inconsequential to winning, they probably aren’t.

To know if “power charge forgiveness” in a load was something to pay any attention to, to get you the win, you would have to name the game.