WW II Era Weapons in Ukrainian War

D.B. Cooper said:

I firmly believe that this is why certain US Administrations were so adamantly against the reimportation of US mil-surps and/or advocated for the destruction of same. These guns defended freedom (or in the case of the Garbage Rod, held off fascism) all over the world.

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Which only proves their ignorance and/or stupidity as one can stockpile 3-4 AR15s for the same price as a single Garand or Carbine. Lol.

What's the difference. In the end, the Ukrainian people will be stripped of their temporary right to bear these arms. The guns will be scrapped and the people will be once again helpless.

Mn Fats said:

What's the difference. In the end, the Ukrainian people will be stripped of their temporary right to bear these arms. The guns will be scrapped and the people will be once again helpless.

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Scrapped? No way. Some will go back into govenrment emergency caches, many will disappear into attics and cellars- many more will be sold on the black market to criminal gangs and Armenian militias.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Scrapped? No way. Some will go back into govenrment emergency caches, many will disappear into attics and cellars- many more will be sold on the black market to criminal gangs and Armenian militias.

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There were a smallish amount of American firearms that were donated to the Brits in WW2 by US Citizens to British citizens to fend of the Nazi invaders. They were quite literally collected and turned into scrap. These people did not get to keep thier protection. And actually alot of them forgot and mock us Americans today for having our Right to Bear Arms.

Europeans don't seem to learn the value of this Right. So I'm not sure of the fate of an armed Ukrainian citizen, but I guarantee that it wont stick after this done. What happens when they take away what we know as a right, will be up to thier government. If history repeats itself, then it doesn't fair well for the people.

Mn Fats said:

There were a smallish amount of American firearms that were donated to the Brits in WW2 by US Citizens to British citizens to fend of the Nazi invaders. They were quite literally collected and turned into scrap. View attachment 1069936These people did not get to keep thier protection. And actually alot of them forgot and mock us Americans today for having our Right to Bear Arms.

Europeans don't seem to learn the value of this Right. So I'm not sure of the fate of an armed Ukrainian citizen, but I guarantee that it wont stick after this done. What happens when they take away what we know as a right, will be up to thier government. If history repeats itself, then it doesn't fair well for the people.

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Well.....if England had actually been invaded, they might be a little more pragmatic about such things- but then the English have always been a generally law-abiding lot.

The farther East you go, the more, uh.....flexible......the attitude of the proletariat becomes as regard to dicta of their "governments." Add to that the fact that those peoples are often under threat of invasion, civil disorder, religious genocide, and famine.

My daughters old boyfriend was from Hungary and said that it was very common for homesteads in the countryside to have secret stashes of forbidden weaponry up to and including belt fed and shoulder-fired weapons. Additionally, you could easily get just about anything on the black market if you knew a guy who knew a guy.
According to him, unless you actually shot someone, the cops would usually just steal any discovered contraband, or forget about it for a small fee.

Another good friend of mine grew up in Istanbul, Turkey. The government there only cares about protecting the regime, and doesn't really consider shotguns and pistols a great threat so they are generally somewhat legal, or at least not a huge deal if you are caught packing when you shouldn't- also with a small donation to the cops.

His Dad is technically disabled, and thus prohibited from owning firearms. The local cops have confiscated his guns three times and never actually served him with any paperwork.

Now, if they catch you with a centerfire rifle, THAT is a big no-no that will get you disappeared quick.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Well.....if England had actually been invaded, they might be a little more pragmatic about such things

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They were at the back door. What does it take? To actually be invaded? It's a bit late to arm people by then. It was way too close and today they are armed with what? 3" max blades or something.

My point is our 2A is awesome. These countries under attack still wont give thier people that. So you have to hide "secret stashes of forbidden weaponry". Come on. When will they learn.

Mn Fats said:

They were at the back door. What does it take? To actually be invaded? It's a bit late to arm people by then. It was way too close and today they are armed with what? 3" max blades or something.

My point is our 2A is awesome. These countries under attack still wont give thier people that. So you have to hide "secret stashes of forbidden weaponry". Come on. When will they learn.

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Who's "they?" No govenment ever willingly ceeds power to the people, it must be seized one way or another.

Keep in mind, even given ample warning, the Ukrainian Govt. didnt open its weapon coffers until the invasion was actually underway. They know many of these weapons will never be returned and may someday be used against the people in power or to strengthen criminal gangs.

An armed populace is always a threat to the regime.

If ANY good comes from the Russian invasion, it will be a realization that those European countries that still retain a modicum of self-determination may resist further EU attempts to strip their people of the ability to keep arms, but only so long as there is a greater external threat, like Putins Russia.

Interesting video. With the exception of the SVT 40 and RP46, I personally encountered every one of these weapons during the late unpleasantness in afg.

D.B. Cooper said:

Mark Felton just released a short piece discussing the use of WWII era weapons currently being used in Ukraine

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Very interesting. Thanks.

Mn Fats said:

There were a smallish amount of American firearms that were donated to the Brits in WW2 by US Citizens to British citizens to fend of the Nazi invaders. They were quite literally collected and turned into scrap. View attachment 1069936These people did not get to keep thier protection. And actually alot of them forgot and mock us Americans today for having our Right to Bear Arms.

Europeans don't seem to learn the value of this Right. So I'm not sure of the fate of an armed Ukrainian citizen, but I guarantee that it wont stick after this done. What happens when they take away what we know as a right, will be up to thier government. If history repeats itself, then it doesn't fair well for the people.

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Thousands to hundreds of thousands of Americans donated their personal weapons in response to England plea for weapons to arm it people. Whole ship load went over..even some very famous people gave up their custom built rifles for the cause....

Not one was handed out, and almost all, except a handful (some of those given by famous people, which were returned) got dumped in the ocean just after the war.

I'll be damned if I'd ever send any if my guns to anyone after that. Talk about a kick in the balls.

I'm fairly sure if Churchill and his party had kept power...that wouldn't have happened. The liberals kicked him out in an election.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

The farther East you go, the more, uh.....flexible......the attitude of the proletariat becomes as regard to dicta of their "governments." Add to that the fact that those peoples are often under threat of invasion, civil disorder, religious genocide, and famine.

My daughters old boyfriend was from Hungary and said that it was very common for homesteads in the countryside to have secret stashes of forbidden weaponry up to and including belt fed and shoulder-fired weapons. Additionally, you could easily get just about anything on the black market if you knew a guy who knew a guy.

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This exactly summarizes the situation in Greece. The country is awash with guns that are nominally illegal.

The Greek government recently announced that it was contributing 27,000 Kalashnikovs to the Ukraine. The question is, where did the Greek government get these AK-47's, since they are neither produced in the country, nor officially used by its armed forces? The answer is that they represent the approximately 10% confiscated, from the flood of illegal AK's that were smuggled in from neighboring Albania after the fall of the Hoxha regime there. So (according to police estimates) there are still 250,000 illegal AK's floating around Greece. This in addition to the thousands of illegal weapons left over from WW2.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Another good friend of mine grew up in Istanbul, Turkey. The government there only cares about protecting the regime, and doesn't really consider shotguns and pistols a great threat so they are generally somewhat legal,

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Yes. Same in Greece. Shotguns are easy to acquire legally, handguns difficult but not impossible, but rifles are totally taboo. (Rifles, in light of the Greek Civil War, are considered a threat to the government.) But of course the gun laws are generally ignored.

NIGHTLORD40K said:

Who's "they?" No government ever willingly cedes power to the people, it must be seized one way or another.

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Bingo! Rights are not "God-granted," "inherent," or the result of some "Natural Law." In every case, human rights were wrested by the people from their reluctant rulers (who, in turn, often cited God as the foundation of their authority). This especially applies to gun rights. No other country, besides the United States, has constitutionally enshrined gun rights. This wasn't the work of God, but rather it was due to the unique historical circumstances surrounding the founding of this nation.

AlexanderA said:

No other country, besides the United States, has constitutionally enshrined gun rights.

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Mexico, Guatemala, and the Czech Republic?

Definitely not Mexico I think...

Shanghai McCoy said:

Definitely not Mexico I think...

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Article 10 of the Mexican constitution. They just elect to ignore it, much like our lawmakers would like to.

SixteenGauge said:

Article 10 of the Mexican constitution. They just elect to ignore it, much like our lawmakers would like to.

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OK.
I'd always heard that any military caliber firearm was verboten for private ownership so just figured they didn't have a 2nd Amendment like ours.
Like you say, they choose to ignore it...

I lived in Mexico for three years. Rimfire rifles are common in the hands of campesinos. But not city dwellers. Shotguns are also available, but are very uncommon. Handguns can be obtained legally, with significant restrictions. Also very uncommon. No centerfire rifles anywhere.

No citizen carry outside the home. Ever.

One gun store in the entire country.

Ammo (except for birdshot) is rare.

Mexico has a history of multiple armed rebellions. Now, only narcotraficantes and the military have significant arms and ammo.

Article 10 has no teeth. The people are largely unarmed. Only criminals have significant arms and ammo.

Just what lefties would like to do to the US 2nd Ammendment. We have to actively protect those personal, individual rights if we want to avoid the same fate.

Mexico's situation illustrates the choice that Ukraine's people will face after this war (assuming they retain some autonomy).

Interestingly, the Nazi and separatist brigades both managed to obtain arms prior to the war.

Sorry for the thread drift.

We have to separate the legal framework for gun possession from the actual practice, in any given country. Mexico may have a constitutional provision that allows guns, but in actual practice, guns are very restricted. On the other hand, in places like Greece, guns are very restricted by law, but the restrictions are widely ignored. The U.S. is maybe the only place where the law and the practice are congruent (in most states).

Ukraine is going to have so many weapons in circulation, after all this is over, that any attempts to restrict them will be futile. And that includes things like antitank missiles. Every farmer will have his stash.

D.B. Cooper said:

Mark Felton just released a short piece discussing the use of WWII era weapons currently being used in Ukraine.

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............. Thank you for posting that interesting report. The recent news stories on Ukraine have left me wondering how much old Soviet weaponry was still around in that part of the world. I've seen news footage with the more modern arms but I just figured there has to be more to this than what I see on the news. I was surprised to see a Russian soldier with a Mosin Nagant sniper rifle. Would have thought that Russia phased those all out decades ago but was thinking that there are probably still a lot of old Mosins floating around; at least in Ukraine. It's also interesting to see how much WW2 era machine guns are still being used. Figured they would have all been scrapped years ago. A most interesting piece that examines some of the details of that conflict that we normally wouldn't see.

The last imports of PU rifles came in via Molot and Tulsky were decommissioned Russian PU Mosins.
Lazer etched on those rifles are a diamond with a 11 12 or 13, indicating 2011, 2012, 2013 as the year the Russian Army decommissioned them from war reserve.
A scoped, basic, dependable, accurate, high powered bolt action rifle is not out of date on a modern battle field.

Part of this, too, is that those "WWII weapons" still wrok essentially as they were designed.

Is an RPD a better MG than a PD? Yes, in many ways (the AG not having to carry around a bunch of rattly pizza pans of ammo for his gunner being just one). But, once emplaced, they do an equivalent job down range.

An old pickup truck with no a/c will do the same job as one with a/c--only difference is in the comfort of the operators.

Now, the real oddballs, like the Maxim MGs seen, those do beggar imagination.

CapnMac said:

Now, the real oddballs, like the Maxim MGs seen, those do beggar imagination.

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Did you know that the Russian Maxim Sokolov wheeled mount will work with the U.S. M1917 and M1919 Browning series, as well as the British Vickers and German Maxim? I was disbelieving until I actually tried it. It seems that all these guns have the same mounting pin diameters and spacing. (One of these days I'm going to try the big .50 cal. M2HB on a Sokolov mount and see if that works too. That would look like an impressive miniature artillery piece.)