It's time for new thinking on guns in schools

I'm afraid that the liberal "do nothing" mindset is so well sunk into the school system that this is really going to be an uphill battle. To illustrate my point I'll relay something that happened recently that really blew my mind.

A good friend of mine from the police academy was substitute teaching at a local high school a few months ago for some extra money. Well one day when he was due to sub early in the morning he had just finished working a midnight shift and did not have time to go home. So he went to the school in his police uniform and brought clothes to change into. Well the principal just about had a fit that he dared to bring a GUN into his school! Made my friend leave the grounds and drive all the way home to get changed. This was the reaction to a UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER!!! To top it all off the principal is now giving my friend a bad reference to anyone who calls for a background check simply because he came to work in his police uniform.

The ironic part is that my friend is one of those cops who never carries his gun anywhere when he is off duty. Now the one time he actually had it with him is going to be a black mark on his record for anyone who calls this stupid school for a reference. Talk about effed up!

Andrew - I am in total agreement with your sentiments ... but tragically, logic has little place in the equation we would seek.

A guy I fly model planes with is just going back to school .... he likes the place and is enjoying his course but ... you ready?????

Not guns this time .... (well, take that as read - zero tolerance) ... no, ''tobacco products'' .... not only is the school/college a smoke free zone .. not unusual but ...... if you even have a tin of snuff or cig's showing in your car - in parking lot ... it can be ''OUT!!'' .... expulsion!!!!!! Someone tell me that is rational and logical ... sheesh ... where are things going.?

Well schools aren't totally defenseless. Almost all schools have an on duty police officer every day. I doubt that would be any different at Minnetonka since the school is huge.

I know Lakeview is really bad. They have multiple police officers and even send dogs into classrooms to sniff out drugs on kids.

It's sad that we have to talk about arming teachers now since schools are no longer safe. Maybe Columbine wouldn't have been 1/2 as bad if the faculty were armed and trained to use their weapons.

Roadkill:

Of twenty or so men at least three are gay.

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*** does that have to do with them carrying a pistol? I would really like to give you a detailed explanation of why that is an asinine thing to say, but I'm sure some Pink Pistols here can do that much better.

I thought this was interesting

quote:As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape.



here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

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According to the timeline of the Columbine Report


[BLOCKQUOTE]
12:17 Deputy Byerly reports that a male wearing a white shirt and black pants is walking on the west side of the school. The young man had heard of the shooting on TV and ran through Clement Park towards the school carrying an unloaded .22 Caliber rifle and a knife in order to “help the police.†He subsequently is contacted at gunpoint. Deputies determine that the individual is not involved in the incident.
[/BLOCKQUOTE]

MSNBC ran a story today "Are U.S. schools prepared for terrorist attack?" - you can read it here.

It wasn't the article that got my attention, it was the link in the article to a report (ROADMAP) titled "Preparedness in America’s Schools: A Comprehensive Look at Terrorism Preparedness in America’s Twenty Largest School Districts".
I'm not convinced it's a good idea to be publishing a roadmap to the nations 20 largest school districts and in it openly discussing their vulnerabilities. You can read the report here.

Is there any doubt that prepared and motivated terrorists would have no problem pulling this off at US schools?

Two teenagers with a bunch of ghettoblaster handguns and makeshift short barreled shotguns killed how many people in Columbine? It took the SWAT team how long to go in? A group of 5-10 terrorists with smuggled FA weapons and explosives could take hostages easily, no matter how 'prepared' any liberal rag says we are.

Though it would be kind of funny if they tried it in an inner city school and the gangbangers started shooting back at them

I am for letting teachers arm themselves if they want to but I dont think that guns in school would stop terrorists. All they need to do is take hostage of one classroom or one wing and we got a standoff. That one teacher or group of teachers are more than likely to get herself/himself killed if they went on the offensive.

Let's go back to the days of yesteryear, when Israel was young and struggling, and the "freedom fighters", or whatever they called themselves then, commonly raided the communal farms needed to supply produce to the country. The raids were usually at night, and the kibbutz school was often the prime or at least secondary objective of the raiding team. Kibbutz schools included a dorm, or dorm rooms, and they tried with a vengeance to kill the kids there. They always try for the most painful part of a target. Over here, that is also one of the softest targets. History, people, history. Time to get real.

I was in school during the 80's under the shadow of mutually assured destruction and the final years of the cold war...
At one time I hated Russian school kids, because they were Russian...
We never had a case of a firearm being brought to school except for my 9th grade science project and when the cops would show up for assemblies or big championship games. I know more than a few moms and dads carried/still carry though... Concealed is concealed, and what "they" don't know won't hurt them...
Of course, there wasn't any more than 200 students in 7-12 grade...
There were 30 in my graduating class. We were the largest in 15+ yrs.
I never knew what a gang was except to watch about it on TV...
Crime was (and still pretty much is) not a factor...
I got into fights in school, got picked on in gym because I wasn't as fast or as strong as the other kids... Gave more than a few bloody noses to those faster, stronger kids too! I got into guns at an early age and learned right away that you don't need to be strong or fast, you only need to be careful... I hated school, but NEVER would I even DREAM about going in and wasting people... Well, maybe daydream about a few certain teachers/students who were deserving of a bullet. Just kidding!!!
I firmly believe that school is the BEST place to teach firearms safety...
I also think that my constitutional rights should not be infringed simply because I enter a public building...
I walk on the street outside with a firearm, I go shopping next door with a firearm, I drop the kids off and pick them up carrying and I've gone to soccer games and P/T conferences with a handgun in a fanny pouch.
Let a terrorist try something...
They don't see children and innocent people as anything but a means for furthering their cause...
Let some whacko or a child molester try something...
Yeah, I'll go to jail, but there will be a few less of them in the world and I'll plead temporary insanity and claim it was a justifiable homocide...

I won't advocate teachers or students carrying as a school policy, but to deny anyone their second amendment rights is like saying that the Bill of Rights only applies to certain designated areas...

Do we really want to teach our children that freedom is void where prohibited and some restrictions may apply???

If only people would stop watching guns on tv and got out to the range for a day of plinking, it'd be a merrier world...

me

Growing up we had BB Guns and Archery in school. Everyone had some knowledge of firearms and how to shoot. Even the Female teachers.

The Former College I attended, very few Campus Police carried sidearms. Yep AR does not allow Fireams "on" Campus. I assure you their were / are firearms "off" Campus , from students to instructors - both genders.

I assure you some other instuctors that teach other levels of education have taken "steps" as well. I have assisted with CCW and from kindergarten to College....I met some folks.

The College I changed to , all the Campus Police are wearing sidearms, and a little birdy told me some long arms are in vehicles and "other places".

Same rule applies about "on" Campus and Firearms. Lots of instructors, students....well ....not everyone "parks" on campus. LOTS of folks with knives clipped to pockets, both genders. NO telling the knives not visible. I have the same instructor for all my classes, and some classmates as I've had in other classes....I don't believe any of us will be stationary targets, this might have been discussed in class...

Maybe the schools are the problem...

First off let me start with, I'm 26,have no kids and all I know about school is the (poor) public education givin to me and the (better) college I'm currently attending.

But It seems to me if the problems are the schools, why not start better schools. There are enough people home schooling to start appropriate schools. Teach firearms safety/markmanship and (the full) constitution, teach free thinking students, Arm the teachers and allow parents the same. The more I hear about students being kicked out for the capitol offense of drawing a firearm in artclass, or the computer systems in schools being filtered from pro-2nd web sites, and the ostrasizing and/or medication of gifted children because they prefer not to blindly follow the views of the teacher, the more I begin thinking about keeping my (future) kids away from these wackaloons. These are your children not thier sociology experiment.

I know this would be a difficult task but...It is indeed for the children

How come we hear about schools and Jewish Community Centers being shot up, and seldom hear the same about police stations and pistol ranges?

What is their secret?

Teachers do not have the "authority" they once had. Discipline , respect for teachers is non- existent in some cases. Public Schools are too PC and afraid of geting sued. The Students can get by with anything - and the students know it. Many parents/ guardians - don't care. It is a place to get the kid fed and out of their hair for a few hours.

A Lot of monies are spent to bus kids here in AR. We have had a problem with Public Schools for ~60 yrs. Taxes go up for education so the lawyers and politicans can get more for their pockets....kids, what do the kids need? So some folks pay pay out of pocket to homeschool or send Kids to Private schools...along with the school tax.

Our Economy is poor because of poor education,and folks wonder why.

So - my proposal has been this. Buildings, Buses and whatever cost monies to build , maintain and the like. IIRC our District spends $4 millon on buses, gas / maint....that is a LOT of $.

Give Every kid a computer and Internet access. Do Classes on- line . Now the teachers still teach - online as well. We can cut down the # of buses/ bus runs, the # of Public Schools , becausue kids don't have to attend every class , everday. The Same Building can be used for multiple classes, and subjects requiring hands on - such as science labs. I mean if HS kids didn't attend everyday ....Just like College....better use of resources.

The reality is - in Today's Real World , that is what kids are going to do when they grow up. Research the material , do the clincals/ labs/ etc.

Granted the early ages need the developmental stages to prep, still , all in all - less expenditure on those things that don't go toward education itself.

Get less gummit meddlin - less PC and the students will be better prepared for the real world. I'm sure Private Enterprise would be willing to help, they do have academic programs in place already.

Guns - well , let the teachers and students that are of age have them. Add the fact , less schools , less targets. The idea of schools as targets - less attractive. More folks with firearms less attractive. Heck not knowing who is armed is less attractive.

Just a thought.

$4 millon bucks has to buy quite a few "puters and Internet access tho'.

I have 6 kids, 5 in school this year...

The oldest got in trouble last year for talking about fieldstripping my AK...

Talking about a gun in school, why not teach the dumb ones why guns are not toys to be played with?

Now I hear about kids being kicked out for drawing guns in art class...
Might as well get rid of Van Gogh for fear of kids chopping their ears off...

(It was Van Gogh wasn't it? I don't remember, I was drawing guns when the teacher was telling us about freaky artists who were long dead.)

How about being failed for writing an action story filled with guns for a free writing assignment by an uptight conservative english teacher and copying the story word for word and getting an A- in summer school from an open-minded liberal one who said that although it was vulgar and graphic, it was very descriptive and represented an extremely popular genre...
When I asked her about her opinion of firearms she surprised me and opened my eyes to the reasons why not to stereotype:
She said that although she didn't care for firearms or shooting sports, she didn't see why a lawful person should be denied access to them...

I teach my kids firearms safety... I wish every parent would do the same...
I'd rather they learn from me than from an accident...

I took a look at that report on the preparedness of the 20 largest school systems. I work in Prince George's County and we received a good rating. If what we are doing is the benchmark of what is considered "good" then I view the entire study with skepticism.

The report refers to the fact that that every school has 2 days worth of water in place for every student and staff member. That is a bald-faced lie....straight up. About a year ago, the principal came on the PA and asked all first period teachers to have every student bring in a bottle of water that we were supposed to store somewhere in our classroom. OK.....35 kids in a class X 1 gallon of water per day X 2 days. That means every classroom is supposed to have 70 gallons of water Figure that we have nearly 3000 kids and the whole concept gets even fishier.

It's not happening.

Furthermore, while we have a visitor's center at the main entrance of the building where folks have to sign in to the building, the other 20 entrances to the building are unsecured and unsupervised. As long as a bad guy enters the building through the main entrance and announces his intentions and gives the old retired guy time to get off of his can to track down one of our uniformed officers we're OK.

And to top that off.....I'm at the best school in the county! What do you think the bad ones are like

Tom Clancy wrote a story about radical Islamic terrorists shooting up a day care center.

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That was a scene in Executive Orders, when terrorists try to kidnap President Ryan's daughter while she was at the center.

For some reason, I tend to take Clancy's imagination seriously. He sure called it on using a 747 as a manned, guided missile.

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So did Dale Brown and (to a lesser extent) Lee Grunfeld.

When you post a sign at the entrance of any building, including schools, and declare it a "gun free" zone, you might as well also put up a sign stating: ATTENTION PSYCOS AND TERRORISTS, UNARMED VICTIMS INSIDE.

The purpose of teachers packing in school is not to STOP and event.

Its purpose is to distract the badguys and make noise. The purpose is to disrupt the plans of the BG's and hopefully buy enough time to allow professional good guys to arrive at the scene and set up operations. The key feature of the Russian operation was the planting of explosives in the gym. Nothing was done to distract the BG's.

As it stands now there is no interference envisioned should BG's want to hit a school. In my state we have palatial government factory schools way out in the country. They can have a thousand or more students. Schools range from elementary through middle through to high schools. There is no immediate defense anywhere around. To make it more interesting a number of them are located near a variety of roads which will facilitate escape should it be desirable.

Near where I live the county is constructing a campus consisting of 4 large schools on several hundred acres of land. The parcel is located between 2 cities. The big city has nothing, I repeat, nothing of that side of the city with which to respond. The smaller city couldn't afford the assets to respond.

School security has been focused on the past on a disruptive student of a parent. Now days the threat is armed combat teams. Americans don't respond to threats. We react once hit up side the haid. Too bad a lot of kids will die first.

Sad but true....

working in the school system for the past 15 years....I have become educated....about the system at least.

The school is a business just like any other...and the bottom line is money. Home schooling sounds good initially....but who is going to teach them with Dad and MOM...working outside the home. It used to be that Mom walked or drove little Suzie to school everyday...and sometimes the students would even come home for lunch and a nap....(the young ones..not the high schoolers...although they would if you let them ;-)

The structure of the American Family has changed with the advent of the two income family. Most parents don't even go to the bus stop with the kids anymore, much less take an active role in their education. School is the day care for kids over 5.....sad but true. Soooo there are not that many people in attendance to help on school grounds should an occurence take place. The administration seems to be so worried about weapons..(expelling kids for taking cultural items for "show and tell" that could be considered a weapon....or for bringing a knife to cut an apple for lunch because they wear braces and cannot bite into an apple....(true story..no exaggeration here). I as a bus driver....cannot have a gun in my car on the bus garage/transportation grounds....much less carry it. It is immediate grounds for termination if I am caught with it in my car. So....I either have to not carry from home....or park somewhere else and walk....great choice huh?

I was in school in the lates 70's and 80's....and I have seen a lot of things change. But the school system...in my opinion....while trying to do a very difficult job.....just does not have the parental/community support and demand to make the kind of changes you guys talk of. Society in general just does not care until they get hit right over the head with the "event". I for one.....will continue to carry my fanny pack on my bus.....and keep my CW in my car....and although I am VERY careful....and don't boast about it ..or even care to acknowledge to anyone that I work with that I have even the slightest interest in guns....I would rather lose my job than my life or one of the hundreds of children that are put into my care on a daily basis. Just as in everyday life.....my work motto is the same....they may attack me....but I will not go down without a fight!

As for home schooling.....it would be great if Mom wasn't working and staying home to raise those kids she gave birth to. But...I don't see it happening in my lifetime....and it is a shame. Just as I feel the breakdown of the American family is a shame and the ultimate reason for the decline of the American society....but then you did not ask me for my opinion....sigh


Lady45

Legal guns in schools

I am a volunteer at a urban elemintary school in Michigan. The only security we have is an unarmed adult hall monitor. He spend most of his time chatting with the female employees. The ( Hall Guards) are hired just a bodies to be there. Once I saw a person described a security chief walk through. This person was not armed and was so out of condition he/she could bearly walk up the stairs.
I the holder of a Michigan CCW can not only not carry in or on the school property I can't have the gun locked in my car on school property. I have to park on the street.
The terror test last year was 1. Lock the Door 2. Hide. 3. Put a sign on the window noting students at this location. 4. Place a colored paper under the hall door to show ( Good Guys ) were are in here.
While the chance of a terrorist at this location is extremely rare. An angry parent is more likly.

Mentor

There is no hope for the public schools except drying them up with a voucher system (or forcing them to compete with private schools by means of a voucher system).

Meanwhile, some places are better than others. I carry at the private school to which I take the children, and I do it with the written permission of the head of the school, which is what is legally necessary in MA. It may not be easy for everyone to find a school headed by such a person, but do you really want to trust your children's education to idiots any more than you want to trust their lives to idiots?

Might check...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100560 - most folks believe that school gun bans are Federal - STATES can relax the general ban under their "licensing" laws.

Grassrooters might look to their state to change things.

For What It's Worth.

-Andy