rail and rings or rings only?

It's really up to you all three systems work. For myself it depends a little on use, if it's long range rifle I'd use one piece rail with 20 moa built in IE EGW.

Nothing looks as classy as leupold base and rings. Nothing looks as old school as weaver detachable rings. For whatever reason I prefer those.

mavracer said:

It's really up to you all three systems work. For myself it depends a little on use, if it's long range rifle I'd use one piece rail with 20 moa built in IE EGW.

Click to expand...

I do the same...depends on task/purpose of the rifle.

I have all 3 systems and they all work. For a hunting rifle I try to simplify and save weight by going with LW Talley's, for a multi-use gun I go with QD rings with bases, for precision rigs I like one piece rails with 20MOA built in and separate rings.

On a hunting rifle I like Talley Lightweights. They are simple, relatively inexpensive, easy to mount, light, and are more than strong enough. The scope will break before any mount you choose.

Buy Talley Lightweight 2 Piece Scopemount w/ Integral 1 Ringss at - SWFA Outdoors

I'm not opposed to a rail, especially on a target rifle.

What you are referring to as "short rails" are Weaver, or Weaver style bases. They will work with any ring that uses a cross slot. Weaver is the traditional brand, but many other companies make similar rings and bases. Some steel, some aluminum. They work but require a separate base that is attached to the rifle, then rings that are attached to the bases. More complex and more screws to work loose. The Talley's above have the lower ring and base made together and I just like them better.

The only thing I'd advise against are the Leupold/redfield mounts that use dovetails to attach the scope to the mounts. They are heavy. You can add up to 1/2 lb extra weight to your rifle with these. They are very difficult to get mounted properly and hard to get the rifle zeroed.

Those were developed years ago when it was pretty common for scope mounting holes on the rifle to not be drilled perfectly in line with the barrel. Since the scope could pivot from side to side to get it aligned with the barrel they were a necessary evil. No reason to use them on a modern rifle and despite the weight are the weakest mounting method.

My personal preference, as a general rule, is a one piece base with rings for flexibility. Main reason being, should I decide to swap scopes, if I need to buy new mounts I just have to buy new rings which is generally cheaper than a one piece (or two piece I suppose) complete mount.

I had a DNZ GameReaper one piece mount for my Weatherby Vanguard (same thing as your Howa) and really liked it, but switched to a scope with a 30mm tube and couldn't use it anymore so replaced it with a one piece rail and rings.

Actually, if you'd be interested in the mount and it would work for you I'd sell it, just shoot me a message if you're interested. Link below is what it looks like.

OP, the Talley linked by jmr40 and the DNZ system are both very good. Won't go wrong with either.

Bazoo said:

Nothing looks as classy as leupold base and rings.

Click to expand...

/Talley mounts have entered the chat/

One consideration is that every added element is another potential failure point of screw breakage, loosening, etc. For that reason, when dedicated direct mounts for a given rifle are available, I tend to use them rather than placing generic rings on an interposed rail. All that, of course, goes out the window when we're discussing 20 MOA systems, QD needs etc. But simply, when Talley or Weaver has a set of rings made specifically for a Ruger 10/22, for instance, I'll use those rather than use the one-piece or two-piece rails for a 10/22 and then putting some clamp-on rings on the rail. Saves weight and its always a few less screws to worry about loosening.

rdnktrkr said:

Question is, When does the 20moa rail start to be needed?

Click to expand...

It depends on scope adjustment and trajectory of the ammo you're using.
If your scope has 50 moa of adjustment that's 25 up and 25 down. If your round drops 30 moa at 1000 a 20 moa rail will give you 45 moa up and 15 down so you'd be able to dial up 30 moa for your 1000 yard shot.

rdnktrkr said:

When does the 20moa rail start to be needed? I basically would be shooting at 1000yrds and less probably closer to 5 or 600yrds.

Click to expand...

Angled bases are NEEDED when the range being attempted with the selected cartridge requires more adjustment than available from the specific optic.

The math is actually pretty easy. For most bottleneck cartridges with ~2” optic heights, starting from optical center, we have somewhere around a mil of “UP” incorporated into our 100yrd zero. For a 30mil optic, optical center leaves 15mils UP, minus the ~1mil 100yrd zero compensation, that’s ~14mils of working elevation. For most cartridges in the 6BR, 6.5 creed, 308win class, you’re talking about 1200-1400 yards before we hit 14mils. With less elevation adjustment available in your optic, or more drop on your cartridge, that range gets shorter.

That said… 20moa is only 5.8mils, which means my optical center will now be around 700 yards for this class of cartridges, offering 15 more beyond 700, and a total around 19.8. So adding a 20moa rail means I can shoot closer to the center of my glass for the majority of my shooting, rather than increasingly farther and farther away from center, and means I can get out around 1600-1800 before I run out of adjustment. Less distortion, better light, better clarity, and ~300 extra yards of capacity. So having a 20moa rail is (almost) never a bad thing.

mavracer said:

If your scope has 50 moa of adjustment that's 50 up and 50 down.

Click to expand...

This isn’t correct. If a scope is listed as 50MOA, then it only has 50MOA total, not 50 up and 50 down.

We also have to accommodate our optic height and absolute drop to 100yrds, so we lose around 3.5moa on the bottom side. For example, a Leupold VX-Freedom is listed as 60moa, on a flat rail, optical center is +/-30moa, so if it’s sitting 2” above bore in a 308win, with 2.3” of absolute drop at 100yrds, 4.3” total compensation in the 100yrd zero, 4moa, we only have ~26moa available to dial, so we’re stuck dialing AND holding for anything past ~940yrds. Adding a 30moa rail to that rifle would allow use of 56moa of elevation, getting us out to 1400yrds before running out of turret.

mavracer said:

If your round drops 60 moa at 1000

Click to expand...

What in the world cartridge are you shooting with 60moa of compensation required at only 1000yrds? That’s my DOPE for 1,000 for my 30-30… 60moa is around twice too much drop for conventional 6mm to 30cal short action cases used for LR shooting.

Varminterror said:

This isn’t correct. If a scope is listed as 50MOA, then it only has 50MOA total, not 50 up and 50 down.

We also have to accommodate our optic height and absolute drop to 100yrds, so we lose around 3.5moa on the bottom side. For example, a Leupold VX-Freedom is listed as 60moa, on a flat rail, optical center is +/-30moa, so if it’s sitting 2” above bore in a 308win, with 2.3” of absolute drop at 100yrds, 4.3” total compensation in the 100yrd zero, 4moa, we only have ~26moa available to dial, so we’re stuck dialing AND holding for anything past ~940yrds. Adding a 30moa rail to that rifle would allow use of 56moa of elevation, getting us out to 1400yrds before running out of turret.



What in the world cartridge are you shooting with 60moa of compensation required at only 1000yrds? That’s my DOPE for 1,000 for my 30-30… 60moa is around twice too much drop for conventional 6mm to 30cal short action cases used for LR shooting.

Click to expand...

That's what I get for posting before I have my coffee lol.
I edited my post

mavracer said:

That's what I get for posting before I have my coffee lol.
I edited my post

Click to expand...

No worries, amigo - after the week I had, my Saturday morning coffee came in the form of sleeping in for ~2 extra hours to sharpen back a dulled edge…