Current Model 25 capabilities

Throwbackguy said:

My question is: Is the M25 manufactured for older-style low-power loads (like the Cowboy stuff)… or is it ‘newer’, capable of current loads?

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Capable of both.

This 25 Classic was new in 2017. I shoot everything from 185 RNFP cast, 300 grain jacketed to 335 grain cast. However, there is not enough standard rear sight elevation to go from 185 to 335, running out of room at about 300 grains. So I went with a dot and removed the front sight.

It shoots so well, it’s gotten springs and a trigger job, smoothed trigger face with case hardening and Harrett target grips.

If you look in the April 2022 issue of Handloader magazine (#337), Brian Pearce has an article for hand loading ammunition for S&W .45 Colt revolvers. He states that the post-WWII Model 25s and Model 625 can easily handle .45 Colt "+P" loads of 23,000 psi. The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .45 Colt is 14,000 psi and there is no formal designation of .45 Colt +P. Pearce explains he has had discussions with a S&W engineer who confirmed that the 25 and 625 revolvers will safely handle .45 Colt cartridges loaded to 23,000 psi because S&W makes .45 ACP revolvers on the same frames with the same steel that are approved for use with .45 ACP +P loads that have a SAAMI rated pressure of 23,000 psi.

The question though is, does one need that extra performance for the cartridge at the expense of more powder, more recoil and noise, more wear and tear on the firearm, etc? When I use my S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun for hunting I do load up some 270 grain hard-cast to roughly 20-23,000 psi. However, most of my loads are a 250-255 grain bullet going between 850 and 900 fps, which still will go lengthwise through a deer.

Here are my S&W .45 Colts, two 25-9s and a 625-7.

Have an unmodified M25, mfg 9/17 - in short - it is a great revolver.
Chambers measure .452, lock up is tight, timing fine, trigger/action smooth.
Have shot a number of different loads and power levels.
Currently two loads, a 250 gr pentagram hollow point at approx 900 fps for 4 and 2 legged varmints.
and a tier II hunting load of 255 gr SWC at 1050 fps. Have tried heavier bullets and more stoked loads,
not sure it is needed- the hunting load is very consistent and effective.
Pondered an M25 for some time, wish I had gotten it sooner.

DR505 said:

When I use my S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun for hunting….

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Me too pretty much. Although I carry my Mountain Gun with 255 grain at 900 fps using HS-6 when I’m bow hunting.

In the last three years bow hunting, up close and personal, I’ve seen two Mountain Lions, a pack of 30 coyotes, a huge cinnamon black bear (we don’t have grizzlies in Utah, right?) and some sketchy dude from California that I called in with a cow call.

The guy from California was the biggest concern of them all, LOL!
L-R 185gr, 255, 300, 300, 335gr

Ru4real said:

In the last three years bow hunting, up close and personal, I’ve seen two Mountain Lions, a pack of 30 coyotes, a huge cinnamon black bear (we don’t have grizzlies in Utah, right?) and some sketchy dude from California that I called in with a cow call.

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So how much did the CA dude dress out at?


@Throwbackguy I have a model 25-15 and it is one of my favorite revolvers. I have loaded up 205 and 255 grain loads up to SAAMI max pressures and I am very happy with the accuracy.
I spoke to S&W Customer Service about loading hotter than SAAMI loads and of course, they wouldn’t say the guns could handle hotter loads but one gent I talked with said “they should handle hotter loads”.
I decided SAAAMI specs are just fine for me after loading up some 255 grain bullets over 8.0 and 9.0 grains of Unique. Accurate loads with some kick.

I have used a S&W Model 25-5 for deer hunting. My standard load was a 255-260 grain SWC loaded over Unique to obtain 950-1000 fps. The revolver is certainly capable of more but more is not needed for Ohio white tailed deer. With the load I mentioned, I have not recovered any bullets, including a couple of end to end shots

It was mentioned the frame, steel, cylinder, heat treatment etc is the same as the Model 25-2. The Model 25-2 easily handles the 45 Super, so the Model 25-5 should be able to handle those pressures also.

John Linebaugh writes specifically ablout the Model 25-5.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180525063939/http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

Kevin

This question comes up so frequently. I bought a gun in Caliber X can I overload it to shoot like Caliber Y?

The answer is yes! The real question though is how safe is it to shoot ammo that is 5,000, 10,000 even 20,000 PSI higher pressure than the caliber Marked on the gun by the manufacturer, and how many rounds can you shoot before failure?

Its easier to buy a gun in caliber Y and underload it so it shoots like caliber X, and much safer too.

No real info to back it up but looking at my 27’s 29’s and 25’s I don’t see any appreciable difference in appearance. Wouldn’t the steels used be the same across the models.? Moving up in caliber the cylinder walls would get thinner with the 45 being the thinnest, is that a factor.?
The 45Colt brass was never intended for higher pressure loads beyond the 45C black powder load of 40 grains of powder and a 255 grain bullet and it would not take much smokeless of any variety in that big old case to exceed that. To avoid that and because I just punch paper I’ve adopted TrailBoss (or 3F black) as my standard powder for the 45C.

whughett said:

No real info to back it up but looking at my 27’s 29’s and 25’s I don’t see any appreciable difference in appearance. Wouldn’t the steels used be the same across the models.? Moving up in caliber the cylinder walls would get thinner with the 45 being the thinnest, is that a factor.?
The 45Colt brass was never intended for higher pressure loads beyond the 45C black powder load of 40 grains of powder and a 255 grain bullet and it would not take much smokeless of any variety in that big old case to exceed that. To avoid that and because I just punch paper I’ve adopted TrailBoss (or 3F black) as my standard powder for the 45C.

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The original blackpowder .45 Colt cases should not be used for smokeless powder. As for modern cases, Starline brass will easily take the "Ruger Only" loads that hit 32,000 psi...much higher than the 14,000 psi SAAMI maximum.

DR505 said:

The original blackpowder .45 Colt cases should not be used for smokeless powder. As for modern cases, Starline brass will easily take the "Ruger Only" loads that hit 32,000 psi...much higher than the 14,000 psi SAAMI maximum.

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The brass will handle it, but the revolver won't. Both S&W and Hornady mention it, the M25 is not designed for high pressure loads and MV's should be kept to around 1000 fps maximum for any sort of durability. I see no reason to exceed that, a 250 or 300 grain bullet travelling at that speed will certainly stop a man at any reasonable defense distance, and for hunting there are better revolvers/pistols for the purpose.

bangswitch said:

The brass will handle it, but the revolver won't. Both S&W and Hornady mention it, the M25 is not designed for high pressure loads and MV's should be kept to around 1000 fps maximum for any sort of durability. I see no reason to exceed that, a 250 or 300 grain bullet travelling at that speed will certainly stop a man at any reasonable defense distance, and for hunting there are better revolvers/pistols for the purpose.

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Agree completely. If I’m going to shoot hot loads in a revolver chambered 45 Colt I use one of my Rugers... either the Blackhawk or the Redhawk. That said a 255 grain hard cast bullet going 850 to 900 FPS is nothing to sneeze at and a bit less punishing to the shooter.

I'd cheerfully load some hot stuff for a 25-15, but it gets my Cowboy loads instead. I've a 6" 629 for hell-raising loads.
Even those modest loads knock the stuffing our of dangling bowling pins at 35 yards; a big bullet at a walking pace is plenty effective.
Yeah, I'm pleased with the 25-15; was thinking about a modern revolver in that caliber. There was some creep in the trigger, rectified with a new hammer from Smith. The factory grips are likely Altamont, handsome and well fit. They are also thin at the top; replaced them with Eagle cokes, which feel much better.
The fit and finish are excellent, as is the bluing. For some mysterious reason, the gun is a four-screw with a lock....
Moon

Older, that is pre 1989 M25's have a larger chamber mouths and will not shoot well with 0.452 cast bullets. Accuracy with 0.452 jacketed will be acceptable, but not stellar.

It was in 1989 that S&W went to smaller chamber mouths. This a a phone number I took talking to Doug Brassard in S&W Customer service.


25 March 1991 Talk with Doug Brassard

I asked Doug about the chamber dimensions that were allowable for the 45 Colt. This was in reference to a discussion I had with Lee Precision about their carbide crimp die sizing all the 45 Colt cases with .454 diameter bullets. Doug said that Smith and Wesson belongs to SAAMMI and receives their specifications. Only American ammo and gun manufacturers belong to SAAMMI. In fact PMC once asked him to send them all of his SAAMMI specification books. He told them to go join SAAMMI. Anyway, SAAMMI allows a rear diameter of .4862 nominal plus .004 and .4806 plus .004 for front of the 45 Colt chamber. When I asked him about the 45 Colt ball chamber throat diameters he said that they used to be .4545 to .4565 but now they were .452 . Smith and Wesson has its own standards for the barrel dimensions for the 45 Colt and they are : one turn in 20, 5 groove, lands .444 -0.0 + .0012, groove .451 - 0.0 + .0017. For the 45 ACP it is a 6 groove barrel, 1 turn in 15 inches, lands of .443 -0.0 +.0012 and grooves of .450 -0.0 and +.0017. Interestingly enough the SAAMMI specifications for 45 ACP lead bullets and jacketed bullets are different. Jacketed specs are .452 -.003 and lead bullets .453 -.003.

Take a 0.452 FMJ and drop it in the chamber mouths of the M25 you are interesting in acquiring. If the bullet wobbles with a lot of clearance, it is one of the larger chamber mouths. It can be made to shoot well with 0.454 commercial cast bullets, if you can find them, or if you cast your own.

This may have been the first model to have the 0.452 chamber mouths, at least it was in the first year.



And this one, very accurate, shoots like a champ

Personally, I do not "hot rod" my 45 Colt loads for any of my 45 Colt revolvers. I have several Model 25-5's, a 625, and a couple of Blackhawks.

When I was shooting IHMSA handgun silhouette in the 1980's, my 357 magnum revolver failed before a match and the only gun I had in reserve was a 6" Model 25-5. Besides the rainbow trajectory of the standard ammunition, if I hit then 200m rams, the rams toppled. Pretty impressive for an old cartridge in my book.

Here is my trio of 45 Colt Model 25-5.


If I want a flatter shooting cartridge, I'll drag out a 44 Magnum, 454 Casull or my 460 XVR.

No sense beating up fine 45 Colt revolvers.

But, what ever floats your boat.

bangswitch said:

The brass will handle it, but the revolver won't. Both S&W and Hornady mention it, the M25 is not designed for high pressure loads and MV's should be kept to around 1000 fps maximum for any sort of durability. I see no reason to exceed that, a 250 or 300 grain bullet travelling at that speed will certainly stop a man at any reasonable defense distance, and for hunting there are better revolvers/pistols for the purpose.

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I would not wish to put the old balloon head brass to the test with even a standard pressure load...I do not think the web will handle a +P smokeless load, and of course the soft iron firearm would not. The pressure curves of black and smokeless powder are VASTLY different.

DR505 said:

I would not wish to put the old balloon head brass to the test with even a standard pressure load...I do not think the web will handle a +P smokeless load, and of course the soft iron firearm would not. The pressure curves of black and smokeless powder are VASTLY different.View attachment 1078085

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I should have been more clear about what I meant. I was responding more to the comment that "Starline brass will easily take the 'Ruger only' loads....." than about the old black powder cases. I use Starline for my .45C loads; it is a robust case, but the M25 won't handle as much as the Starline case can.

whughett said:

No real info to back it up but looking at my 27’s 29’s and 25’s I don’t see any appreciable difference in appearance. Wouldn’t the steels used be the same across the models.? Moving up in caliber the cylinder walls would get thinner with the 45 being the thinnest, is that a factor.? .

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Yes - very much so.
S&W and Colt put the cut outs for the bolt stops directly above the chamber - right where the steel is the thinnest.
Ruger offsets the bolt stops so the cutouts in the cylinder fall more in the meatier part of the cylinder.

I've heard that that's why the M25, with it's larger diameter case, is weaker than the M29 & not really anything in the way of the frame.

I don't care one way or the other if it's true or not since I have zero desire to own a M25. They are beautiful guns - & the .45 both Colt & ACP are great cartridges - but - I don't see either of them is a D/A revolver.
Plus - my "hot rod" days are over.