"Without hand fighting skills, you are just a walking holster"

Corpral_Agarn said:

I just found the comment lacking... experience/wisdom/familiarity? I don't know the exact word for it.

Click to expand...

Hubristic and maybe a lil condescending sounding but I suppose he's trying to make a sale. He has no idea what your skill level is with your firearm.

But....he makes a point. If you find yourself in what begins as a non lethal confrontation, but turns lethal because you avail your weapon to your opponent at some point during the scuffle, no amount of skill with a firearm is going make a difference in that case.

I used to take Taekwondo when I was a kid, I wish I had stuck with it. My teenage daughter took karate for 5 years and she just gave it up even though she was great at it and progressing quickly, couldnt be more disappointed. I would like to take her back one day and maybe do it with her if I can make time for it. I think having training in hand to hand combat of any kind, pick a martial arts discipline, basically any will marry nicely with self defense shooting disciplines and training.

Corpral_Agarn said:

Is this a common attitude in the combat sports?

Click to expand...

It is very common with the tacticool variety of any species.

Take Southnarcs EcQC course and you will humbled, much wiser, and a changed man. You will think differently when you get back home, and ponder the reality, the gravity, and the fact you don’t know what didn’t know, your weapon is not a talisman. You will need empty hand skills if you want to survive. It is simply A or B.

A recent local event wherein a guy my age -- whom I know to have been in pretty good shape -- was the victim of an assault and was brutally beaten made me do some more reflecting on my physical skills.

I'm not conceding anything to age, but I will tell you that -- guaranteed -- age and physical degradation will catch up to every one of us.

Happy in my retirement that I've got no more physical agility tests to dread every year, no more recertifying in defensive and control tactics (no more getting TASERed or OCed, either!), BUT: after a weekend of hard yard work on the property, I was physically whipped to the point where, when I went out early last night to restock the beer supply, had I been attacked, realistically, I would NOT have been able to offer much of a fight. And back in the day, I was pretty capable and well-trained (trying to be modest here).

My point is this: there are some fighting techniques you just may not be able to use as you age and your body breaks down. For those of us who may have dabbled in BJJ -- after multiple labrum and rotator cuff tears with both shoulders surgically "fixed," three knee operations, wrists, fingers and elbows riddled with arthritis, and a bad hip to boot -- your ground fighting skills will be almost nil. Any discipline using kicks? Yeah, good luck with that.

Krav Maga is a bit more realistic, but guys, be warned: train in fighting skills that you will be able to actually use to good effect when you are older, can't jump, have lost a lot of punching power and your joints are thrashed.

Am I just a "walking holster?" Not quite yet, but I'm getting there. (I've lost only a fraction of a second off my draw times from concealment...)

I've accepted that I'm a 55 year old race car with excessive mileage and I probably run the motor a bit harder than I should- but I'm not ready for the junkyard yet. Its fun sparring with the younger guys and helping them get ready for their upcoming fights.

Old Dog said:

I'm not conceding anything to age, but I will tell you that -- guaranteed -- age and physical degradation will catch up to every one of us.

Click to expand...

I'll concede plenty to age, illness and injury, but that doesn't in any way equate to being a walking holster. You can find stories every week of non-Rambos successfully defending themselves. For me, the key is situational awareness and the wisdom that comes with age. I.e.:

• I stay away from the kinds of places I felt comfortable in 20-25 years ago, but that are, well, less than completely savory.
• I have no need to go into bad areas for any reason, at any time, and I don't.
• If I'm out after dark, it's for a reason. Dinner for an occasion, etc. I don't go out after dark just to go out, unless it's with a group of people, and if I'm out, I stay away from anything remotely sketchy, park in well lit areas, pay attention to what's going on around me, and I'm carrying. Situational awareness goes a long way.
• I don't leave anything unlocked, ever. That seems to be a common form of stupidity.
• My house has a security system, outside lights that are always on after dark, and other outside motion sensor lights. If you're going to get into my house undetected, you're probably the kind of person who would never target somebody like me in the first place.

Yeah, if I find myself face to face with a bad guy, especially a young one, and I'm not already at high ready, I'm probably screwed, but that's a fact of old age. It hardly means I'm helpless.

To keep myself sharp, my housekeeper is under orders to attack me at every opportunity.

Pistolay said:

For me, the key is situational awareness and the wisdom that comes with age. I.e.:

• I stay away from the kinds of places I felt comfortable in 20-25 years ago, but that are, well, less than completely savory.
• I have no need to go into bad areas for any reason, at any time, and I don't.
• If I'm out after dark, it's for a reason. Dinner for an occasion, etc. I don't go out after dark just to go out, unless it's with a group of people, and if I'm out, I stay away from anything remotely sketchy, park in well lit areas, pay attention to what's going on around me, and I'm carrying. Situational awareness goes a long way.
• I don't leave anything unlocked, ever. That seems to be a common form of stupidity.
• My house has a security system, outside lights that are always on after dark, and other outside motion sensor lights. If you're going to get into my house undetected, you're probably the kind of person who would never target somebody like me in the first place.

Yeah, if I find myself face to face with a bad guy, especially a young one, and I'm not already at high ready, I'm probably screwed, but that's a fact of old age. It hardly means I'm helpless.

Click to expand...

Well, we get what you're saying, and it's all good, but the thread starter had our OP being cautioned that those who sally forth armed should also acquire some hand-to-hand fighting skills lest the only force option they have is lethal force. That was what I was addressing.

My point was only that one might think about training in a fighting discipline that may still provide adequate defensive skills even after age takes effect and one's strength, power and stamina inevitably decline.

Fine Figure of a Man said:

To keep myself sharp, my housekeeper is under orders to attack me at every opportunity.

Click to expand...

So that's why I haven't seen you around much lately. Keep getting knocked out by the ol housekeeper.

Old Dog said:

My point was only that one might think about training in a fighting discipline that may still provide adequate defensive skills even after age takes effect and one's strength, power and stamina inevitably decline.

Click to expand...

With arthritis in both feet and knees, and my dominant hand recovering from arthritis surgery that will leave it permanently weakened, along with a 40 year chronic torn rotator cuff, that kind of training would do far more harm than good at this stage of my life. I was a workout fanatic for decades, so I have a lot of experience dealing with chronic injuries. I know my current limitations, and have to live within them. Training is always a good thing, but it's simply not feasible for many of us. Again, it doesn't mean we're helpless, just disadvantaged.

A couple of weeks ago, a Muay Thai instructor wanted to demonstrate a technique, and asked me to kick him in the head. He's 6'4". After a brief moment of introspection, I said "I appreciate the vote of confidence, but that ship has sailed" and so he found a 20 year old to do it.

And honestly, that hurt, and still kind of does. But - kicking someone in the head is not a viable self defense strategy, even for a 20 year old. The handgun man needs only buy himself a bit of time and space to get to his gun, and I firmly believe that can be done by the great majority of us, right up until overwhelming disability sets in.

The last thing the wolf expects is for the sheep to throw a hard elbow to the face and then take advantage of the brief interlude to produce a gun. It's no kind of guarantee - but it's a hell of a lot better than thoughts and prayers.

Pistolay said:

With arthritis in both feet and knees, and my dominant hand recovering from arthritis surgery that will leave it permanently weakened, along with a 40 year chronic torn rotator cuff, that kind of training would do far more harm than good at this stage of my life.

Click to expand...

Man, I must not be very clear in expressing my thoughts these days. I was speaking primarily to the younger chaps here -- who are still physically capable of at least productive, if not intense, training -- relating my experience. I was not speaking to continuing intense martial arts training into one's senior years -- as I noted my physical condition (with orthopedic problems probably worse than yours) -- I was talking about learning skills that translate well into being useful in one's later years.

So allow me to restate: in my younger days, I was a decent boxer, and at various times, studied Tae Kwon Do (briefly), Karate (on and off for a few years between military deployments), and later on, Krav Maga (seriously for a couple years) and in conjunction with my job, BJJ (not because we wanted to be MMA fighters, rather sought competency in certain control techniques) for about two years. Now, at this point, I'm starting to think there's a lot of garbage out there in terms of commercial martial arts training (the ever-increasing popularity of MMA/UFC keeps generating new cash-making machines), and (in hindsight) I think that a lot of this training won't work in the real world anyway once one gets older, weaker and more crippled.

.38 Special said:

The last thing the wolf expects is for the sheep to throw a hard elbow to the face and then take advantage of the brief interlude to produce a gun. It's no kind of guarantee - but it's a hell of a lot better than thoughts and prayers.

Click to expand...

Pretty much.

I hope anyone new coming into this thread reads through all 13 (so far) pages; there's a lot of insight presented and some guys I know who've got some good experience. And @Corpral_Agarn, hope you're still enjoying your classes. Know that once you get older and stop doing it, you'll miss getting on the mat, getting sweaty and engaging in the most basic form of physical competition there is. (What you won't miss is being sore all the time or getting your butt kicked by someone you underestimated.)

Old Dog said:

was talking about learning skills that translate well into being useful in one's later years.

Click to expand...

The degradation of physical abilities certainly is a problem we all have faced or will in the future. It's discussed often here, the constant analysis of training with carry weapons and evolving the what and how to better suit our needs. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to assess the physical aspect as frequently. Finding out what we can't do anymore in a controlled scenario would better than finding out it's not there when we really needed it.

Howland937 said:

The degradation of physical abilities certainly is a problem we all have faced or will in the future. It's discussed often here, the constant analysis of training with carry weapons and evolving the what and how to better suit our needs. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to assess the physical aspect as frequently. Finding out what we can't do anymore in a controlled scenario would better than finding out it's not there when we really needed it.

Click to expand...

It caught up to me but I fought back. A year ago, I was 50 years old and overweight and suffering from a significant back injury. I was so bad a year ago, I could barely walk and I was trying to get a handicap sticker for the parking lots. But I made some life altering decisions and now, I ran a half marathon less than a month ago with a 10 lb camelbak on my back and my Glock on my hip. I did 5 miles with an 18 lb weight vest last weekend and then ran another mile and a half without the vest. I ran almost 7 miles on a treadmill 2 nights ago. I'll be at it tonight again with the weight vest here in a little bit. I'd like to run with front and back AR500 plates but I don't want to alarm folks at the park so I just use the weighted vest. I think about getting back into martial arts but I feel like I'm kind of old for it so I haven't. Hopefully, my old hand to hand skills would return to me if I needed them but I have zero desire to engage in in hand to hand combat with anyone under any circumstances and I would immediately draw that Glock to avoid it if I thought it was going to go that way. I'm not going to allow myself to become injured again (or worse than injured).

redcon1 said:

I think about getting back into martial arts but I feel like I'm kind of old for it so I haven't.

Click to expand...

A good dojo will recognize all of your relevant factors and allow you to train at your own speed. I didn't get back into it until 4 years ago (when I was 51). I MMA 2 nights a week and kickbox 1 night a week.

redcon1 said:

Hopefully, my old hand to hand skills would return to me if I needed them

Click to expand...

All skills are perishable unless you keep them fresh. ALL skills. That's just the way the body and brain work. I went through long periods deployed where I didn't drive a vehicle- it felt weird for about a day after I got home. I went hunting a few years ago on a piece of property I was not familiar with, so I broke out my compass. It took me a minute or so to remember how to work it, and I've been through some of the most challenging land navigation training in the military- not to mention navigating long distances by map and compass all over the world under any condition you could name.

Nowadays, I get hit so much by people who know what they are doing that if some street moron cracks me and fails to knock me out or cause severe damage, I imagine it would not be such a big deal.

Break the wrist and walk away.

I would agree that a high percentage of ccw holders who rarely, if ever, shoot or train could be described as walking holsters. But there is a segment of shooters who shoot regulary, train and some who regulary compete that are much more comfortable with their gunhandling and shooting skills.

It would be great to also be capable of hand to hand fighting for those who are capable and young or fit enough to do it.

Just a couple of days ago I read an article describing the very small percentage of ccw shootings where the opportunity to get to cover occurred or where a reload was neccessary. Both were just a few percentage points. They didn't address how often going hands on or weapons retention was neccessary. But I'd practice for the possibility.