Open sights vs. visibility

mikemyers said:

But this is useless when you're not shooting at a paper target,

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I don't know about that "useless" thing. My wife and I tipped over hundreds, if not thousands of steel silhouettes, at ranges from 50 meters to 200 meters back in our IHMSA days, and we both used 6 O'clock holds so that we could see the whole target we were shooting at.

mikemyers said:

Long ago, people shot at lots of things, some of them live, some not. I would imagine that back then, the open sights were lined up with the place you wanted the bullet hole to appear.

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I don't know about that either. I'm pretty old (74), and Dad taught me to hold at 6 0'clock when I'm shooting handguns with open sights.

I was taught 6 o'clock hold from the beginning. Probably because I fired only rifles (and shotguns) in my early years. Even my first handguns were fired 6 o'clock hold, but distances were 20 yards or more.

It wasn't until I started shooting self defense oriented handguns that I was shown to let the front sight cover the center point of the target.

But, handgun sights are fuzzy to me now. I do add paint or a fiber optic to the front sight and usually leave the rear sight alone. The rear sights may have white "u"s or white dots on them from the factory, if they aren't just black.

Fiber optics are still fuzzy to me, unless on a really long barrel. The only sights that my eyes can see in focus are red dots or lasers. Blame middle age.

I prefer the sights to be "POA/POI", or as near to that as realistically possible. Its never going to be perfect though, nor will the 6 o'clock hold for that matter. Things are generally only "perfect" at one distance. Not a biggie, unless you're a perfection freak or a fixed position bullseye shooter.

I also prefer three dot night sights, or the front sight painted bright orange if I cant have the night sights. For me, the front sight is the key to shooting, and what I focus on the hardest. Having one that quickly catches your eye is a major plus.

I present the gun with the front sight above the rear sight as the gun comes up, and pick it up and place it on the target before the sights come up into alignment. If I want precision, I allow the rear sight to rock up into a row of three dots, or a traditional sight picture.

If Im shooting quickly, Ill often just use the front sight. All depends on the distances involved and how Im shooting. Just getting the front sight onto where you want the round to go is usually good enough, within reason. But again, it all depends on distance and how you are shooting.

A lot of times, I dont consciously use the sights at all, and just shoot over the top of the gun. Having a front sight that is easily seen, even when you're not looking at it goes a long way here, as you may not be looking at it, but your brain still sees it and can make things work.

I agree with John, most handguns these days have to fat a front sight, and either a thinner front, or wider rear notch is better and easier to shoot with, especially quickly. Problem there is if you like the dot sights, that usually makes the sight fatter to accomadate the vial.

The only way you're really going to figure out what works best for you is to shoot a lot, and in as many different ways as you can, so your brain can learn the different indexes and can do most of the work in the background while you focus on the target.

Starting with the fundamentals, and being able to place and call your shots in simple bullseye type shooting, is where you want to start, and then move on from there. If you're not hitting what you're looking at on-demand doing that, you're probably not going to have much luck going forward.

I understood the six o’clock hold to be best when you will know exactly what you will see when you shoot i.e. bullseye shooting.

For the context of not knowing what you will see, e.g. a torso, a shoulder, the top of a head, an ankle while shooting under a vehicle, etc., a center hold is best.

-Stan

On one gun with difficult to see sights, I painted my front sight orange so it easily stands out.

Different sights on different guns. What’s the best?

mikemyers said:

(My S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman already has an orange front sight, so maybe I should settle on that for all my open sight guns.....)

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For me, those orange/red plastic front sight inserts on S&W guns disappear if I'm standing out in the sunlight. Blame the angle of the ramp and the plastic not being serrated causing sunlight to simply reflect off the sight and wash out the color.

Fiber optics on the other hand grab that sunlight and make use of it. Not really an easy swap on an old school S&W, though.

These are not a good focused pics of the front sight below on my Single Six, but these Williams Firesights make nice target sights. That pic is in indirect light and the fiber optics still brighten up considerably. Plus, those Firesights are small diameter pipes instead of fat diameter self defense type pipes. Very useful for target shooting, for people that could use the visual assistance.
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Electricmo said:

Different sights on different guns. What’s the best?

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I forgot about that dot above dot like on that Beretta. That's my favorite version of white painted sights on self defense pistols.

If you consistently shoot at the same color paper targets for practice, a paint marker or dab of Dollar Tree nail polish on the front sight in a color that contrasts your target should help. It'll still be visible for everything else too. Don't use orange if your targets are red and don't use green if you're using the shoot n see type.

mikemyers said:

With open sights, sometimes the front and rear sights and the "point of aim" blend together, so it's more difficult than usual to see the sight picture. For paper targets, one solution is to shoot "sub-6-o'clock" hold, so the sights are lined up against white paper, rather than a black bull. But this is useless when you're not shooting at a paper target, perhaps shooting at steel plates at varying distances....

Long ago, people shot at lots of things, some of them live, some not. I would imagine that back then, the open sights were lined up with the place you wanted the bullet hole to appear.
With pistols I generally use open sights, I align my sights before I shoot and when It shoot I only look at the front sight and the target. I can't focused on all three. I have changed the front sight to a Orange plastic on one gun. My best pistol has night sights with white dots, I like that.

So, the purpose of this discussion thread, is how best to deal with the above scenario. If shooting sub-6-o'clock hold is not the best way to learn how to shoot well with open sights, what is the best way to learn how to use open sights regardless of what it is that's beyond them. Maybe painting the sights? Maybe a white outline around the rear sight?

(I never did figure this out, which is why I now think I prefer a red dot sight, but there must be a better answer....... For paper targets I have an answer that works, but I think it's more important to find a way to align the sights with the point of aim - somehow.)

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I use stick on orange dots on all my targets. I prefer not to use black targets if I can help it. I always want the bullet to hit where I aim. As my vision got worse I went with more scopes and red dots. Now after cataract surgery I have started using sights again.

On pistols I line up sights before I shoot and only look at the front sight when I shoot. My favorite has white night sight dots. I like that. Another I put an Orange tube sight on.

I think all that practice will help alot.

mikemyers said:

I can't practice at silhouette targets until we have a match, but I figure that should be fun.

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When my wife and I were into IHMSA back in the '80s, we practiced at "silhouette targets" made out of the 4 "animals" (chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams) cut out of a roll of roofing tarpaper and stapled to plywood stands. Eventually, the plywood stands would get worn out from too many holes through them, but a roll of roofing paper was cheap, and we got a good many practice targets out of one roll.
Of course, our practice "range" is a local county gravel pit that we can easily get 250 yards out of, and I had it marked off with big rocks at 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters. That gravel pit is only about 2 miles south of the house, so it's "convenient" for target practice to say the least.
You might not have an option like that, but if you do, silhouette targets cut out of roofing tarpaper work great - just saying. Hold at 6 O'clock.

mikemyers said:

That sounds wonderful - lots of fun

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Yes sir, IHMSA was lots of fun for my wife and me - for a couple of years. Unfortunately, we let it become more like a job than a hobby.
I not kidding. I was still working back then, and I'd hurry home from work every day so that my wife and I could drive down to the gravel pit and get in an hour's or so practice before it got dark. Then we would drive back home and load ammo for another couple of hours.
Come Saturday morning, we'd head for a match somewhere. The nearest one was up near Idaho Falls - 80 miles away. Sometimes we'd drive over to Twin Falls or Boise (140 miles or 200 miles respectfully), or even down to Salt Lake - about 150 miles. We went wherever there was a match that day. Of course the matches over in Boise (200 miles) usually meant we were gone from home for the whole weekend.
Then come Monday, we'd start all over - practice and load for next weekend's silhouette match. It took my wife and me and a little over 2 years to figure out what we'd done to a fun hobby, so we quit IHMSA. We've shot in a couple of Cowboy Action matches, a few Mountain Man Rendezvous shoots and a couple of BPCR matches since then, but we're very careful to not take any of them seriously, because we know what we're like - competitive.
BTW, my wife and I didn't compete against each other in IHMSA. She shot in the "Production Revolver" class with a 10.5" Ruger Super Silhouette 44 Mag, and I shot in the "Unlimited" class with a custom 14" Remington XP-100 7mm IHMSA. It's probably good that we didn't compete in the same class. We've been married for almost 51 years now - we might not have even made it to the 20-year mark if we would have been competing against one another during our IHMSA days back in the '80s.
Anyway, don't do what we did - don't let a shooting sport (or any other hobby for that matter) get the best of you.

Our running joke was that Ray Charles could win a gunfight with OEM Glock sights; still can see them better than about anything. Used a +1 rear, to make the G19s shoot 6 o'clock.
The fiber optics work well, too. Having an argument with myself about changing the Patridge on the front of a 25-15 to an optic; have it painted electric green at the moment.
Moon

mikemyers said:

With open sights, sometimes the front and rear sights and the "point of aim" blend together, so it's more difficult than usual to see the sight picture.

So, the purpose of this discussion thread, is how best to deal with the above scenario. If shooting sub-6-o'clock hold is not the best way to learn how to shoot well with open sights, what is the best way to learn how to use open sights regardless of what it is that's beyond them. Maybe painting the sights? Maybe a white outline around the rear sight?

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Don't use paper targets with a black bullseye.

Sorry, I don't know why it's even an issue. It depends entirely on the gun and its sight picture. You adapt your aiming technique to the gun's sights. You find what works for that particular gun and that's what you use. One isn't "right" and the other is "wrong". It is what it is.