Hello all looking for a little more clarification if possible, So i am a FFL 07/ SOT 2. As far as "manufacturing" i am looking to take a stripped lower say made by like Aero precision or Similar, and assemble and make my own firearm and then selling it completed. I know i need to fill out the forms for manufacturing it, but the part im a hair lost on is do i then need to Laser engrave all my info somewhere on the lower as well since i technically "Made a firearm", or do i just Fill out the form 2 and good to go. I just got off the phone with my atf agent and instead of giving me a straight answer just gave me a huge run around that got me nowhere. So any info is helpful. Thanks!
SOT 2 Manufacture Question
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AlexanderA
Member
I'm assuming you're intending to complete it as a Title II weapon (fully automatic). In that case, you become the "manufacturer" and you must engrave your name and address on the lower.
"Making" (as per Form 1) applies to individuals and, as regards FA weapons, can't be done post 1986.
"Making" (as per Form 1) applies to individuals and, as regards FA weapons, can't be done post 1986.
dogtown tom
Member
ATF considers assembly of components as a manufacturing activity.
Manufacturers are required to mark the firearm as follows:https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-27/chapter-II/subchapter-B/part-478/subpart-F/section-478.92
You should not be asking this question, but reading ATF regs. "Hearsay" is never a substitute.
What's required of an 07FFL should have been covered during your initial interview with your IOI.
All he should have done is refer you to the CFR, giving you the applicable regulation. If he says "Um, yeah you have to do ______" Never call him again. He isn't a lawyer and most definitely not your lawyer. His answer isn't going to keep you compliant and he sure as heck isn't going to testify on your behalf.
dogtown tom
Member
He isn't going to sell more than one.
Not all firearms assembled, made or manufactured are Title II and those that are......... aren't machine guns for sale. The Hughes Amendment prohibits the transfer of new machine guns to anyone but military or law enforcement.
He's not doing a Form 1.
AlexanderA
Member
I realize that. I was trying to draw a distinction between "making" (the word that he used) and "manufacturing."
If he was going to manufacture exclusively Title I firearms, he wouldn't need to pay SOT. Therefore, I made a reasonable assumption that he was talking about assembling machine guns (or, possibly, SBR's). And these machine guns can be sold not only to military / law enforcement, but also to SOT dealers with "law enforcement letters." (I'm not sure this is a viable business plan, but that's another subject.)
Unlicensed individuals can assemble Title I (semiautomatic, non-SBR) guns not for resale. In that case, they don't need to mark the lowers with their information.
MachIVshooter
Member
If it's a title I GCA firearm, you do not F2 register it. But you do engrave manufacturer info, enter it in your books, and you will report it in quantity on annual 5300.11 and pay FET if you transfer it.
If it's a title II NFA firearm, all the above plus Form 2 when completed, Form 3/4/5 to transfer.
If it's a title II NFA firearm, all the above plus Form 2 when completed, Form 3/4/5 to transfer.
@AlexanderA sorry to bother/hijack, I have little interest in NFA, but I read from the forum from time to time.
In the last paragraph, you said :
"Unlicensed individuals can assemble Title I (semiautomatic, non-SBR) guns not for resale. In that case, they don't need to mark the lowers with their information."
So I have a hypothetical, if that's okay. Suppose I build my own AR-XYZ out of an 80% frame , would there be any legal, feasible way of selling it? Would it be legal to gift it to anyone?
In the last paragraph, you said :
"Unlicensed individuals can assemble Title I (semiautomatic, non-SBR) guns not for resale. In that case, they don't need to mark the lowers with their information."
So I have a hypothetical, if that's okay. Suppose I build my own AR-XYZ out of an 80% frame , would there be any legal, feasible way of selling it? Would it be legal to gift it to anyone?
GE-Mini-Gun
Member
Yes…just sell it. The ATF does not have a “set” number of firearms you need to sell before you need a license, they just mention you need a license to sell. I asked that question to my IOI when I got my license…she said no number set in stone. To keep your back side out of jail I would not sell without a license and if I did it would only be a couple. Also, no one I know would purchase an 80% lower that someone else built…
Just curious was all. Y'know the saying, curiosity killed the cat and satisfaction revived it.
entropy
Member
Drive by. The first clue is an SOT shouldn't have to ask this question, and as dogtown Tom mentioned, he shouldn't be asking here, he should go to the source.
Telekinesis
Member
As noted above, you can just sell it like a normal gun.
My understanding is that building with the intent of resale is illegal (without a manufacturing FFL), however building for personal use and then deciding to sell it is legal.
There isn’t really a hard line between legal and illegal in that regard. If you build one, shoot it, and then 5 years later decide to sell it - you’re probably ok. If you buy ten 80% lowers, finish them, and then sell them all the next week, you’re probably going to have issues. Personally I wouldn’t sell an 80% gun, but that’s more because I don’t trust other people’s machining, so I wouldn’t expect them to trust that I machined my gun correctly. As mentioned, there’s almost no market for already completed 80% weapons, especially with ARs where it is very easy to get a stripped lower that is already complete.
AlexanderA
Member
The Original Post on this thread talked about "a stripped lower say made by like Aero precision or Similar," so I limited my discussion to that. Such a lower would already be marked by the manufacturer, so there would be no need for an individual assembling it into a gun to also add his information.
An "80%" lower is an entirely different animal. I would suggest reading the new "ghost gun" regulations that have just come out. Yes, you can still build an "80%" into a gun, but when the new regulations come fully into effect (roughly 120 days from now), if it later changes hands it has to be marked. (And there are already laws about this in certain states.) Tread carefully.
dogtown tom
Member
Well, wrong.
Being the OP is an 07FFL Manufacturer, ATF regs require him to engrave his name and location. It doesn't matter if the AR lower was manufactured by Aero Precision, Palmetto, etc.......the OP would be performing a manufacturing operation and is required to mark the firearm per ATF regs.
07FFL takes an AR lower, assembles it into a firearm he has to mark it. Doesn't matter if it already has AERO, Anderson, PSA, etc on the receiver.
An 01 Dealer or 07 Manufacturer can take a customer provided lower, assemble it with his upper........thats gunsmithing, not assembly/manufacturing and marking is not required.
See:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...e-performed-licensed-gunsmiths-under/download
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...ies-identification-markings-firearms/download
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AlexanderA
Member
I mentioned that an (unlicensed) individual would not have to mark a stripped lower that he assembled into a gun.
Since the OP is a newbie "manufacturer" or, more likely, is asking a rhetorical question and doesn't have his license yet, it's relevant to lay out the pros and cons of getting the license in the first place.
dogtown tom
Member
Which is irrelevant to this thread. And you specifically referred to the OP of this thread and wrote you limited your discussion to that.
More likely?
AlexanderA
Member
That's a typical way of stating a hypothetical. I took his whole post as a rhetorical question. An actual SOT would know the answers.
dogtown tom
Member
He has eighteen posts.......a lot can be learned from them.
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