My .357 Mag Woods Load Workup

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WrongHanded

WrongHanded

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CAUTION: The following THREAD includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

So I wanted to try and work up a good solid woods load for .357 Magnum. I've come to the conclusion that for those not experienced with or interested in big bore magnum revolvers, the .357 Mag might be the best option for some. This is largely based on meplat diameter coupled with velocity. And so I started on a little journey of my own to figure out what I could do at home to make a solid woods load for my 4" barrel .357 Magnum revolvers. All loads, unless otherwise noted, will be tested from my 4.2" barrel GP100.

The bullets selected are from Montana Bullet Works. We have a 160gr LBT LFN-GC at .358" diameter (left), with a meplat diameter of .285". And a 180gr NOE WFN-GC at .358" diameter (center), with a meplat diameter of .280".
IMG_20220424_163640614.jpg
On the right is a Rimrock "WFN" which lost its gas check, but is also 180gr. The meplat is not as large as the other two, and I'd call it .250" as any more seems overly generous.
IMG_20220424_163553641.jpg

Here's a look at the crimp grooves and comparable seating depths.
IMG_20220424_163749974_HDR.jpg

The 180gr NOE has a tiny crimp groove, but I've proved to myself that it works. Anyhow, on with the testing.

Perhaps Lil'Gun or W296 would be the best powder choice, but I don't have those. I've got Alliant powders, 2400 and 300-MP. So that's what I'm using. Now 300-MP, when loaded to Alliant max with 18.6gr under a 158gr JHP, gave me a pathetic 1192fps average from this GP100 (though it did much better from a rifle). This tells me it needs a heavier bullet or a longer barrel. The longer barrel is out, so the heavier bullet is in. 300-MP for the 180gr, but 2400 for the 160gr.

Having shot many SNS 158gr coated LSWCs with 14.5gr of 2400, and run it up to 15.5gr (which was scary), but I feel 14.5gr is a safe load for my guns. And given that the 160gr LBT does not seat so deeply, I felt it would need significantly more powder. So I ran a ladder like this:
14.5, 14.8, 15.1, 15.3, and 15.5gr.

I decided rather than running an accuracy test, I would begin with the chronograph and watch for pressure signs. So I loaded 5 of each in new starline brass with a CCI 500 SPP, and ran the ladder. 79 Degrees, 12' from the unit, ammo kept in shade until shot, chambers and bore cleaned between every string.

The results were lack luster. Low velocities, no pressure signs at all, the primers were not even getting squared off.
IMG_20220507_191132524_HDR.jpg
Left is lowest charge, to right highest charge.

Here are the results for the 15.5gr charge:
1206, 1240, 1260, 1197, 1249.
High - 1260
Low- 1197
Average - 1230
ES - 63
SD - 27

We can and we will go higher. Up to 16.0gr and maybe even 16.5gr. In small increments of course.

That's enough for one post. I add the 300-MP preliminary testing very soon.
 
300-MP and a 180gr NOE WFN-GC:

This one was tricky. My experience with 300-MP has suggested it likes to be run around 100% case fill. And also that it likes longer barrels and heavier bullets. I was concerned I might not even break 1200fps with this bullet. The problem is there's not much data to go by. So I decided to start with a rough estimate of what charge would be a case full.

I measure the depth of a new case, then I measure the bullet seating depth. I subtracted the seating depth from the case depth and had two measurements. Then I filled a case to the top with powder, weighed it. I divided that weight by the case depth, and multiplied it by the depth I had calculated for case depth to the bullet base. I came up with 17.3gr.

That seemed a little high, and because I'd seen a YouTube video where a guy had run 16.5gr under a 180gr hardcast bullet and hit approximately 1250fps from a 4" barrel, I decided to make that my initial goal. So I went down a full grain and work up a ladder like this:
15.5, 15.8, 16.1, 16.3, and 16.5gr.

I had previously not used a magnum primer for 300-MP because Alliant claims it's not necessary. But plenty of people have and it seems to tighten ES and SD. So as my precious stash of CCI 500s was getting low anyway, I found some CCI 550s and used those for this load.

This one was more interesting and productive. The primers started squaring off a little more, but not washing out or flattening exactly. Extraction was easy with all loads. Here are the primers, left is starting, and right is top end.
IMG_20220507_191158121_HDR.jpg
I don't see anything excessive there.

Same test conditions as the 160gr/2400 initial testing, 5 of each charge weight. The ES and SD numbers were pretty good for all charges. The highest ES was 59fps, and the highest SD was 21fps. Both from the 16.1gr loads.

Here are the results for 16.5gr:
1242, 1260, 1257, 1273, 1261.
High - 1273
Low - 1242
Average - 1258
ES - 31
SD - 11

These are some good numbers for a 180gr bullet in .357 Magnum from a 4" barrel. But I think there's more room to bump up that charge. Remember I calculated case capacity at 17.3gr.

So I think I will try 16.7, 16.9, 17.0, 17.1, and 17.2gr. I don't want a compressed load, and I realize there's a good chance I'll have to stop before I finish the ladder and pull the remaining loads. We shall see.
 
barnfrog said:
Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to seeing the rest of your results.

Just curious: what is your definition of a "woods load?" Primarily a hunting load?
Click to expand...

For me, it's a defensive load for dealing with dangerous animals (but will also work on people just fine). Which is why I wanted to use a 4" revolver that's relatively light weight and unobtrusive.
 
WrongHanded said:
CAUTION: The following THREAD includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

So I wanted to try and work up a good solid woods load for .357 Magnum. I've come to the conclusion that for those not experienced with or interested in big bore magnum revolvers, the .357 Mag might be the best option for some. This is largely based on meplat diameter coupled with velocity. And so I started on a little journey of my own to figure out what I could do at home to make a solid woods load for my 4" barrel .357 Magnum revolvers. All loads, unless otherwise noted, will be tested from my 4.2" barrel GP100.

The bullets selected are from Montana Bullet Works. We have a 160gr LBT LFN-GC at .358" diameter (left), with a meplat diameter of .285". And a 180gr NOE WFN-GC at .358" diameter (center), with a meplat diameter of .280".
View attachment 1077182
On the right is a Rimrock "WFN" which lost its gas check, but is also 180gr. The meplat is not as large as the other two, and I'd call it .250" as any more seems overly generous.
View attachment 1077185

Here's a look at the crimp grooves and comparable seating depths.
View attachment 1077186

The 180gr NOE has a tiny crimp groove, but I've proved to myself that it works. Anyhow, on with the testing.

Perhaps Lil'Gun or W296 would be the best powder choice, but I don't have those. I've got Alliant powders, 2400 and 300-MP. So that's what I'm using. Now 300-MP, when loaded to Alliant max with 18.6gr under a 158gr JHP, gave me a pathetic 1192fps average from this GP100 (though it did much better from a rifle). This tells me it needs a heavier bullet or a longer barrel. The longer barrel is out, so the heavier bullet is in. 300-MP for the 180gr, but 2400 for the 160gr.

Having shot many SNS 158gr coated LSWCs with 14.5gr of 2400, and run it up to 15.5gr (which was scary), but I feel 14.5gr is a safe load for my guns. And given that the 160gr LBT does not seat so deeply, I felt it would need significantly more powder. So I ran a ladder like this:
14.5, 14.8, 15.1, 15.3, and 15.5gr.

I decided rather than running an accuracy test, I would begin with the chronograph and watch for pressure signs. So I loaded 5 of each in new starline brass with a CCI 500 SPP, and ran the ladder. 79 Degrees, 12' from the unit, ammo kept in shade until shot, chambers and bore cleaned between every string.

The results were lack luster. Low velocities, no pressure signs at all, the primers were not even getting squared off.
View attachment 1077188
Left is lowest charge, to right highest charge.

Here are the results for the 15.5gr charge:
1206, 1240, 1260, 1197, 1249.
High - 1260
Low- 1197
Average - 1230
ES - 63
SD - 27

We can and we will go higher. Up to 16.0gr and maybe even 16.5gr. In small increments of course.

That's enough for one post. I add the 300-MP preliminary testing very soon.
Click to expand...
Cut to the chase and try H110...;)
 
243winxb said:
It will be interesting to see if the primer pockets get loose in 5 firings or less.

SAAMI caps the velocity in the 1220 fps range for 158. Less for 180gr.

The design of the bullets leaves more case capacity for powder.
View attachment 1077194 View attachment 1077195
Click to expand...

Interesting info. I had no idea they capped velocity. It strikes me as strange, but I suppose there are other forces at play besides peak pressure.

With the crimp I'm putting on these loads, it might be a race as to which end of the case wears out first.
 
WrongHanded said:
Interesting info. I had no idea they capped velocity. It strikes me as strange, but I suppose there are other forces at play besides peak pressure.

With the crimp I'm putting on these loads, it might be a race as to which end of the case wears out first.
Click to expand...
My dangerous game woods loads for .357mag 4” is a 200gr Cast Performance LBT WFN-GC over 13.5gr of 2400 that only makes 900fps but at that speed it will go right through a 180lb hog and break every bone it hits on the way. I don’t think you’ll ever get 1300fps but really I don’t think you need it. Unless you’re in real danger of being attacked by a polar bear.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
My dangerous game woods loads for .357mag 4” is a 200gr Cast Performance LBT WFN-GC over 13.5gr of 2400 that only makes 900fps but at that speed it will go right through a 180lb hog and break every bone it hits on the way. I don’t think you’ll ever get 1300fps but really I don’t think you need it. Unless you’re in real danger of being attacked by a polar bear.
Click to expand...

Well, the velocity component has to do with Veral Smith's work discovering that meplat size and velocity are the primary factors in wound diameter. Essentially his testing brought him to the conclusion that for a given velocity, a wider meplat produces a wider wound channel; and that for a given meplat diameter, a higher velocity creates a wider wound channel. He also came to the conclusion that (to a certain point) a larger wound channel meant faster blood lose and quicker incapacitation.

Which is why I'm focusing on those two things. Obviously the heavier bullet will penetrate farther for the same velocity. And ideally, the wound channel should go all the way through.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well, the velocity component has to do with Veral Smith's work discovering that meplat size and velocity are the primary factors in wound diameter. Essentially his testing brought him to the conclusion that for a given velocity, a wider meplat produces a wider wound channel; and that for a given meplat diameter, a higher velocity creates a wider wound channel. He also came to the conclusion that (to a certain point) a larger wound channel meant faster blood lose and quicker incapacitation.

Which is why I'm focusing on those two things. Obviously the heavier bullet will penetrate farther for the same velocity. And ideally, the wound channel should go all the way through.
Click to expand...
Okay, well, what did you shoot with that 180gr WFN at 900fps that walked off or kept trying to eat you? I’ve shot a lot of big hogs with a lot lighter loads that went down like they been hit by lightning. I’m not saying it’s not worth the effort to try and get a hot load, just that you can do what you want with a lot less.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Okay, well, what did you shoot with that 180gr WFN at 900fps that walked off or kept trying to eat you? I’ve shot a lot of big hogs with a lot lighter loads that went down like they been hit by lightning. I’m not saying it’s not worth the effort to try and get a hot load, just that you can do what you want with a lot less.
Click to expand...

It's more that I'm interested in journey than anything else. I can and have bought similar loads to those I'm trying to create. Though most don't have meplats quite as wide.

But from a practical point of view, if I go up to 8,000' elevation or higher and bump into an ornery rocky mountain moose whilst I'm wandering about, the more wounding damage the better. I generally take a .44 mag for such things, but my wife (for example) can't handle one of those.

And as with urban self defense considerations, it's not about killing, it's about stopping the threat ASAP. Failing a CNS hit, blood lose and therefore a debilitating drop in blood pressure, is the next best thing. The wider the wound channel, the quicker that happens.
 
WrongHanded said:
It's more that I'm interested in journey than anything else. I can and have bought similar loads to those I'm trying to create. Though most don't have meplats quite as wide.

But from a practical point of view, if I go up to 8,000' elevation or higher and bump into an ornery rocky mountain moose whilst I'm wandering about, the more wounding damage the better. I generally take a .44 mag for such things, but my wife (for example) can't handle one of those.

And as with urban self defense considerations, it's not about killing, it's about stopping the threat ASAP. Failing a CNS hit, blood lose and therefore a debilitating drop in blood pressure, is the next best thing. The wider the wound channel, the quicker that happens.
Click to expand...
Okay, makes sense to me. Well, that 13.5gr of 2400 under a 200gr WFN-GC is pretty much as far as I would push it. I shoot it out of a 5-1/2” Pietta Peacemaker knock off, a Colt Lawman 4” and a RBH 6-1/2”. I don’t get it near my old Colts 3-5-7 6” or the Taurus 66 4”. I never shot a moose, never even seen one in the flesh, but if that 180gr you showed on top of 11-13gr of 2400 stuck in the right spot don’t get it done then something more than a .357 is called for. That’s not a load you want for plinking around with.
 
357 magnum-

1999 Alliant data list 158 gr lswc, 15.3 grs 2400 @ 1620 fps with a 5.6" barrel. Does not say if its vented/revolver. PSI is 34,000. Federal 200 primer. 1.580 OAL. To hot for me. 14grs my max. Wspm. M28.

300MP- 17.5 gr , 1620 fps, 170 gr Speer GDSP, Federal 100 primer , 1.590 OAL 2010 Alliant data.

Just something to compare.
 
So your definition of a woods load is what, hunting small game, medium game, big game? Or just plinking? Highest velocity if I read the rest of the first post correctly but wanted to clarify.
So if your looking for a high velocity then I'm guessing your looking for medium game rather than small game otherwise you would be looking at loads down closer to 38special so you don't blow the little ones away.
My woods load I wanted medium game so I could try handgun hunting in WV and possibly bear defense if needed. I've only ever taken deer with my little youth .22 hornet (smallest legal there) and used dads 30-06 but to me its just too big and heavy so I went back to my little kid gun. The 30-06 seems to be the guys who just drive up and sit in their parked truck anyway. If I'm going to go park then its going to be with the wife sharing the seat but thats off topic here. I prefer to walk the woods or pick an old tree stump to sit on so I wanted less weight hence the smaller rifle or handgun.
I started looking at sites like https://www.hornady.com/bullets/handgun/#!/ for example (and of course it doesn't link to the filter, but if you choose 38 cal (.356) you get bullets they sell with their cute little application icons and see that 140 and up are small and medium game and self defense. I found 158 are more common so I started there. Then started with powders that I could find loads with both XTP and Lead figuring I can be flexible and use one powder.
 
Last edited:
enine said:
So your definition of a woods load is what, hunting small game, medium game, big game? Or just plinking? Highest velocity if I read the rest of the first post correctly but wanted to clarify.
Click to expand...

Defensive. I'm interested to see what sort of power (for lack of a better term) I can safely get from the .357 magnum for defensive use in a woods/wilderness setting with a 4" barrel. So yes, highest velocity (without exhibiting signs of over pressure in my guns), but not without acceptable accuracy. The velocity testing is coming first because I'm watching for erratic numbers, and also looking for pressure signs as I work up. But there will be accuracy testing once I've nudged into questionable territory and then stepped back down from it.

Accuracy is secondary because I find that when I get a handgun load with reasonably tight ES and SD, that load is typically accurate enough for hurried offhand shooting at 25 yards or less. So accuracy will be tested, as will compatibility with at least one other revolver, but probably two.
 
enine said:
So your definition of a woods load is what, hunting small game, medium game, big game? Or just plinking? Highest velocity if I read the rest of the first post correctly but wanted to clarify.
So if your looking for a high velocity then I'm guessing your looking for medium game
Click to expand...
I think he's wanting the biggest fire ball and the most recoil he can find. I did the same thing. That 180 WFN will leave a serious wound channel. I've not killed anything with my 200s yet.
 
Bfh_auto said:
I think he's wanting the biggest fire ball and the most recoil he can find. I did the same thing. That 180 WFN will leave a serious wound channel. I've not killed anything with my 200s yet.
Click to expand...

Well, I already have a 300gr .44 mag load doing 1200fps from a 4.62" barrel. And I doubt I'll be topping that for recoil, though maybe the fireball.

I've posted this before, but here's a chart that helps explain the effects of meplat diameter and velocity:
index.php
 
So my assumption is correct then, your looking for medium size game hunting rounds for your woods round? I did a quick search and found some pictures and your looked to me like smoother eastern mountains that western.

I've tested 296, LilGun and Accurate No.9. I had originally dismissed 2400 since its primary purpose is listed as rifle I figured powders that were primarily designed for pistol should be better in pistol, but now re-thinking that since my woods load goal is making a handgun do rifle duty a rifle powder now seems a better fit.

What are you looking at for range?

What book is that chart out of, might be worthwhile to add the whole thing to the reading list.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well, I already have a 300gr .44 mag load doing 1200fps from a 4.62" barrel. And I doubt I'll be topping that for recoil, though maybe the fireball.

I've posted this before, but here's a chart that helps explain the effects of meplat diameter and velocity:
index.php
Click to expand...
That sounds like my brother's super Blackhawk. It's an interesting recoil to say the least.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well, I already have a 300gr .44 mag load doing 1200fps from a 4.62" barrel. And I doubt I'll be topping that for recoil, though maybe the fireball.

I've posted this before, but here's a chart that helps explain the effects of meplat diameter and velocity:
index.php
Click to expand...
You’ll be surprised. A .44Mag pushes, a .357Mag slaps. Which is worse depends on the shooter. And their grip. Don’t take a Death Grip on any magnum revolver. That’s a sure way to get hurt.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
You’ll be surprised. A .44Mag pushes, a .357Mag slaps. Which is worse depends on the shooter. And their grip. Don’t take a Death Grip on any magnum revolver. That’s a sure way to get hurt.
Click to expand...
I beg to differ, put a finger behind a Super Blackhawk with Dragon trigger guard and you wont call it a push with 44mag. it was memorable
 
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