Zelle

You don’t have to label it anything. I use Zelle, and it’s fairly good.

I must be behind the times. I remember when Zelle began at my bank (which did not have it before), and it was useful for things like sending money to relatives. I never considered it for sending money for commercial transactions of any kind. If you don't know the person are you sure the use of Zelle is appropriate in any case?

I would add that they are probably CYA, not particularly anti anything, at least from that language.

Sellers who demand payment via Zelle should be viewed with the same suspicion as those who request PayPal "gifts", Venmo or Western Union.
Unlike a credit card transaction the buyer has no recourse for refund if the seller doesn't ship the firearm.

I have a friend who has used Zelle to pay for our hobby related stuff. He said if it comes up as far as what you're purchasing, you don't have to be specific, you know? I don't think he used it for anything expensive, though.

Don’t use Zelle to buy guns/ammo online.

You’re begging to get scammed.

Zelle was made and is owned by a collection of major banks (BoFA, Wells Fargo, ect) in response to the popularity of Venmo these banks tend to have a habit of being anti gun. So no it dose not surprise me at all that that is in its terms and conditions. If it wasn't for legal protections and banking regulations I would expect they would start banning FFL's from having bank accounts.

I would not use Zelle to buy guns online as just like western union and money gram there is no way to reverse the transaction. Like no way at all even if the recipient agrees to it or doesn't want the money.

I picked up some dinner for my brother and his wife after they had their 2nd kid and brought it to the hospital. My brother wanted to pay me back for the cost but I wouldn't let him, so he sent me the money on zelle there was no way to reject the money, it was automatic and couldn't be reversed. I had to create and new transaction and send him money instead. This repeated for a few weeks until he finally gave up and just said thankyou.

Zelle is no different than Pay Pal when it comes to buying guns. From what I have read Zelle belongs to PayPal. It's just PayPal with a different name.

frogfurr said:

Zelle is no different than Pay Pal when it comes to buying guns. From what I have read Zelle belongs to PayPal. It's just PayPal with a different name.

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not true on both counts. Zelle is owned by "Early Warning Systems" which is just another way to say co-owned by Bank of America, BB&T, Capital One, Navy Federal Credit Union, JPMorgan Chase, PNC Bank, Ally, US Bank, and Wells Fargo.

As for it being just like PayPal this is also false. Paypal is a payment processor and you can file a dispute to get a charge reversed it was fraudulent just like you can with a credit card. Also with PayPal the recipient can choose to reverse the transaction and return the money.

Zelle is a person to person money transfer service like venmo, once you send the money it is gone. There is no way to dispute a transaction it's as if you handed them cash. The only time you can recall a transaction on Zelle is if the person you sent it to is not enrolled in Zelle. Likewise there is no way for the recipient to reject or reverse the transaction on their end, they would need to send the money back to you in a new transaction to issue a refund.

Not the same not the same at all!

Gun4Fun90 said:

not true on both counts. Zelle is owned by "Early Warning Systems" which is just another way to say co-owned by Bank of America, BB&T, Capital One, Navy Federal Credit Union, JPMorgan Chase, PNC Bank, Ally, US Bank, and Wells Fargo.

As for it being just like PayPal this is also false. Paypal is a payment processor and you can file a dispute to get a charge reversed it was fraudulent just like you can with a credit card. Also with PayPal the recipient can choose to reverse the transaction and return the money.

Zelle is a person to person money transfer service like venmo, once you send the money it is gone. There is no way to dispute a transaction it's as if you handed them cash. The only time you can recall a transaction on Zelle is if the person you sent it to is not enrolled in Zelle. Likewise there is no way for the recipient to reject or reverse the transaction on their end, they would need to send the money back to you in a new transaction to issue a refund.

Not the same not the same at all!

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Research Zelle and Venmo on your own and come up with your own conclusions. Read the rules about firearms purchases. And if you say Zelle and Venmo are the best thing since sliced bread for firearms purchases I will be the first to try.

Look it comes down to this. If you are a seller Zelle is probably a great option it's the equivalent to receiving cash or a bank wire. Once you receive the money it's safe, there is no risk of a chargeback, and it's available to you immediately.

If you a buyer it's a big risk assuming this is not a in-person face to face transaction it's the equivalent of sending cash in the mail or sending money via a bank wire, it's irreversible and the money is gone as soon as you send it. There is a reason it warns you to only use Zelle to send money to people you actually know and warns that the transaction is irrevocable and to make sure the number is correct.

If it is a scam you have no recourse other than to ask the person that took your money to send it back to you. There have been a few rare cases where the bank has decided to eat the cost of a small transaction and just credit the customers account to avoid bad PR but those cases have mostly been over relatively small amounts of money and where the story got picked up by some mainstream media or news outlet. I wouldn't count on that as a solution.

This is a "At Your Own Risk" type of situation.

As you can see Zelle is more trouble than it's worth,

What I don't understand is why C.O.D isn't used more in these online gun sale situations?

I will admit I am unexperienced as I always buy local but it seems like sellers are always complaining about shipping and buyers are always complaining about how to pay. It seems to me C.O.D addresses both of these issues. The Seller doesn't need to worry about fronting the delivery cost and the buyer doesn't need to worry about paying for something they haven't received yet and getting scammed.

The Fedex/UPS/Postman will collect the payment at the time or delivery and forward the money to the seller. The seller doesn't need to worry about not getting paid because they will just return the package if the buyer doesn't pay, the buyer doesn't need to worry about getting scammed because the don't actually pay until they can physically touch the package. It addresses both sets of concerns.

Yes it is a little inconvenient, but it honestly seems like the best option in this situation.

dogtown tom said:

Sellers who demand payment via Zelle should be viewed with the same suspicion as those who request PayPal "gifts", Venmo or Western Union.

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Nearly all the proven scam artists use Zelle for a reason, the scammed buyer cannot retrieve his money. If the vendor does not accept credit cards he gets no order from me.

When I first washed ashore in the United States back in 1984 I found the American banking system allowing credit card payment and the use of ATMs very convenient and advanced. I had lived in Paris the year before and credit cards were accepted almost nowhere.

In the meantime Europe has long moved on to electronic payments for money transfers and paper checks have been phased out decades ago. They use standardized IBAN numbers, basically like a wire transfer in the U.S. but free of charge, very fast and absolutely secure. I can pay from my European account anywhere in the Eurozone and have the funds transferred within 24 hours. If a fraudulent seller receives funds and does not deliver, the police in Germany will investigate when they receive the report and charges will be filed.

Gun4Fun90 said:

What I don't understand is why C.O.D isn't used more in these online gun sale situations?

I will admit I am unexperienced as I always buy local but it seems like sellers are always complaining about shipping and buyers are always complaining about how to pay. It seems to me C.O.D addresses both of these issues. The Seller doesn't need to worry about fronting the delivery cost and the buyer doesn't need to worry about paying for something they haven't received yet and getting scammed.

The Fedex/UPS/Postman will collect the payment at the time or delivery and forward the money to the seller. The seller doesn't need to worry about not getting paid because they will just return the package if the buyer doesn't pay, the buyer doesn't need to worry about getting scammed because the don't actually pay until they can physically touch the package. It addresses both sets of concerns.

Yes it is a little inconvenient, but it honestly seems like the best option in this situation.

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Felony much?
'Cause that's what occurs when you ship a firearm interstate to a nonlicensee.
And C.O.D. has additional fees.
And C.O.D. requires someone to accept delivery in person.
And C.O.D. means paying before you open the package, not C.O.O.T.B.T.S.W.I. (Cash On Opening Box To See What's Inside).....it might be cat litter.

C.O.D. solves nothing.

PzGren said:

......... I can pay from my European account anywhere in the Eurozone and have the funds transferred within 24 hours. If a fraudulent seller receives funds and does not deliver, the police in Germany will investigate when they receive the report and charges will be filed.

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If you buy from a seller in Portugal, the German police will investigate? Who files charges?
Sorry, but scammers will be long gone before any German police officer is assigned the case.

I just purchased a firearm using Zelle. I simply do not indicate what I buying..

I don't think Sells and others are antigun. They are just opting out of all the liabilities that allowing firearm related transactions would open them up to.

I bought an Arsenal AK off of gun broker. The price was almost too good to be true. The seller had minimal feedback and did not accept credit cards. I was never holding hope it was legit but just placing the order didn’t hold me to anything and I had gun broker as the middle man.

The communication opened up and this guy had no clue how to settle the transaction in the gun broker platform. I asked him to send me a picture of his drivers license which he did. I then researched the address on the license through google maps and the assessors website. It came back that it was a legit address and the property had his name in it. We then spoke on the phone and he seemed legit. Still I was leery but I sent him a Zelle payment and received the rifle few days later. Was I comfortable with any of this… NO, but I felt I did the best due diligence I could and it worked out.

Bottom line….I don’t recommend this but there are ways to minimize a potential loss.

dogtown tom said:

If you buy from a seller in Portugal, the German police will investigate? Who files charges?
Sorry, but scammers will be long gone before any German police officer is assigned the case.

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Within the E.U. there are different rules and E.U. law enforcement agencies work together. While I did not restrict electronic payment to firearms in my mind I wonder if you know what you are talking about on an international level or if this was just in this a shot in the dark to appear smart?

dogtown tom said:

Felony much?
'Cause that's what occurs when you ship a firearm interstate to a nonlicensee.

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I guess in my scenario I assumed you were otherwise following all laws with who, what, where you're shipping and all that.

dogtown tom said:

And C.O.D. has additional fees.

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Yes it dose, and?

dogtown tom said:

And C.O.D. requires someone to accept delivery in person.

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don't all firearm shipments?

dogtown tom said:

And C.O.D. means paying before you open the package, not C.O.O.T.B.T.S.W.I. (Cash On Opening Box To See What's Inside).....it might be cat litter.

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Before accepting delivery yes but no not before opening/inspecting the package. Most Carriers will let you inspect the contents of a package for damage and such before accepting delivery. They probably won't offer and might be a little frustrated when you ask because it slows down their delivery schedule and it's not something they get very often, but you can definitely request to inspect the contends of the package before accepting delivery, I have done it before on a few rare occasions when receiving something particularly valuable or fragile or both.

dogtown tom said:

C.O.D. solves nothing.

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I don't know like I said I buy local. It just seemed like it addressed both of the main concerns I hear buyers and sellers complaining about on here.

Why would anyone do business with a company that is actively (money to politicans, activists, etc) trying to destroy them and their country?

Gun4Fun90 said:

I guess in my scenario I assumed you were otherwise following all laws with who, what, where you're shipping and all that.

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Which means its being shipped to an FFL. And as an FFL I don't want to deal with hassles. COD for a transferees gun is a hassle.

Yes it dose, and?

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Ifn' you like paying extra fees.....use a credit card that offers protection.

don't all firearm shipments?

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Nope.
No federal law requires a signature on delivery.

Before accepting delivery yes but no not before opening/inspecting the package. Most Carriers will let you inspect the contents of a package for damage and such before accepting delivery. They probably won't offer and might be a little frustrated when you ask because it slows down their delivery schedule and it's not something they get very often, but you can definitely request to inspect the contends of the package before accepting delivery, I have done it before on a few rare occasions when receiving something particularly valuable or fragile or both.

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Again, if the shipment is being sent to a licensed dealer.....he has no clue what you bought, what the condition is supposed to be or what is supposed to be included with the package.

I don't know like I said I buy local. It just seemed like it addressed both of the main concerns I hear buyers and sellers complaining about on here.

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I'm pretty sure that no one would disagree that buying local offers the greatest transactional security. What you are missing is that the firearm likely ISN'T available locally, IS available cheaper than any local seller has priced that item and thats why people buy from the internet.

Hundreds of thousands of firearm transactions are conducted every year where the seller and buyer are in separate states. Follow a few simple rules and you'll never get stung.
-Check the sellers feedback AS A SELLER. if he has AAAA++++ as a buyer its of little value. If his feedback is not recent, its of little value. Google his username, his address, his business.
-Don't pay with Zelle, Western Union, Bitcoin, PayPal Gift, Venmo or other method where there is no recourse if the seller is a fraud.
-If its too good to be true, it is.
- Buyer beware, means buyer be aware.