Data discrepancy Aa#5 .45cal

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Kingcreek

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I found some forgotten 230g FMJ bullets. I’ve shot thousands of 200gr LSWC but hadn’t loaded FMJ for years.
I have good supply of Accurate #5 so I looked it up in Accurates material (printed from their website). They said starting load 7.8 going up to 8.7 max (or was it 8.4?). No problem so I loaded some up at 7.8. Cycled perfectly but felt real snappy. Thinking I’m just used to 200gr I thought nothing more of it and loaded a couple hundred more.
THEN I pulled my Hornady 8th off the shelf and it says MAX load is 7.9gr #5!
I also have W231 and use it for my 200gr loads but was thinking I would save it for that recipe.
I plan to get the chrono out to check velocity on the 230s but thought I would query here in the meantime.
Any thoughts or experience to share?
 
Interesting. Yes, I agree, that’s what the published data says and I bet it is snappy as you say.

I use AA#5 w/230gr RN but PLATED at 7.1gr—8.3gr which is also Western’s published data.

I sure am not qualified to say why they’re so different but I load plated and FMJ the same (but haven’t bought many FMJ due to price).

Edit: and I like em at about 7.6gr in my government model 1911.
 
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45 acp was the first caliber I loaded and Accurate #5 was the first powder as well. Back before I had a chronograph I worked up to 7.5gr with a 230gr FMJ, 1.275" with CCI 300s. Firing them from my 3.3" XD they seemed close enough to factory ammo and worked great so I never questioned it.
Once I got a chronograph I learned factory Federal 230gr averaged 775fps and my 7.5gr of #5 only averaged 715fps. I continued the load up to 8.5 grains because I was using the same data you saw and reached 823 fps. I wanted to settle on 8.0gr for simplicity but they were only running 740-750 even in the hot summer months. I shortened the OAL to 1.26" and they average 760fps from the 3.3" barrel, called that good enough for my purposes...

For reference since that's a fairly short barrel I recently got a 5" 1911 and here's how two identical loads compare.
Factory - 3.3" - 772 avg / 5" - 833 avg
#5 handload - 3.3" - 760 avg / 5" - 811 avg
 
The problem with Accurate Arms data and powders has been they switch manufacturer's. And each manufacturer's powder burns differently and you have to develop your own data. These are some targets out of my RIA 1911, which has a slow barrel. The loads are about 10 to 20 fps faster out of other 5 inch 1911's.

IdUGn2k.jpg

800 fps is where I want to be for ball ammunition. It is the velocity of the original 1910 cartridges used in the pistol trials that lead to the 1911.

FdliUXS.jpg

and if you have 185 JHP, this worked

okqXfvY.jpg
 
The batch of #5 I have is a few years old and the mfg data was printed then also. Powder shows no sign of degradation.
I guess the chrono will tell me more.
The COAL was listed in AAs load data at 1.250 which is what I used and thought odd as I was sure I always used 1.260
That might also account for some increased pressure. No sign of pressure issues on the brass, just more felt recoil.
Shooting a standard 5” 1911.
 
Kingcreek said:
I found some forgotten 230g FMJ bullets. I’ve shot thousands of 200gr LSWC but hadn’t loaded FMJ for years.
I have good supply of Accurate #5 so I looked it up in Accurates material (printed from their website). They said starting load 7.8 going up to 8.7 max (or was it 8.4?). No problem so I loaded some up at 7.8. Cycled perfectly but felt real snappy. Thinking I’m just used to 200gr I thought nothing more of it and loaded a couple hundred more.
THEN I pulled my Hornady 8th off the shelf and it says MAX load is 7.9gr #5!
I also have W231 and use it for my 200gr loads but was thinking I would save it for that recipe.
I plan to get the chrono out to check velocity on the 230s but thought I would query here in the meantime.
Any thoughts or experience to share?
Click to expand...
Are the 230gr. FMJ's Hornady and are you seating to the same COAL as listed in the Hornady manual?
 
Here's the Western manual start and stop loads. You can get it from Hodgdon now as well. Be advised, Hornady manuals are based on Hornady bullets and data. If you look, 9 times out of 10, you'll see that Hornady loads their bullets at a much shorter COAL, or they have a different profile, which is why sometimes the loads are reduced. Western also provides data for multiple 230 FMJ types. This current manual is based on the current AA5 producer (General Dynamics). The "old" AA5 is Shooter's World Auto Pistol and Lovex D036-3, made by Explosia in the Czech Republic. If you have older AA5, you can use the Lovex/Shooter's world data (which has a lower start/reccomended and higher max listed). Personally, I have SWAuto Pistol and newer AA5 both on hand, and I use the same recipe for both in my 45 ACP and the difference over the chrony is statistically insignificant, even unmeasurable. You might note that there is a wide variance in loads for 230FMJ depending on the bullet type and manufacturer. 20220516_074006.jpg
 
Kingcreek said:
They were bulk bullets, no name. There is a chance they were nosler seconds.
Click to expand...
As is mentioned pretty often, Hornady, A) only publishes data for their components, bullets and brass; B) uses VERY tight chambers/bored in their testing so their loads tend to be "light" in a service-pistol chamber/bore; C) doesn't publish pressure data, just recommended charges and COAL's for a velocity range.

Unless you're using Hornady bullets in Hornady cases, I'd take the Hornady data with a Utah-sized salt lick.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
As is mentioned pretty often, Hornady, A) only publishes data for their components, bullets and brass; B) uses VERY tight chambers/bored in their testing so their loads tend to be "light" in a service-pistol chamber/bore; C) doesn't publish pressure data, just recommended charges and COAL's for a velocity range.

Unless you're using Hornady bullets in Hornady cases, I'd take the Hornady data with a Utah-sized salt lick.
Click to expand...
I'm a Hornady fan, but this is why I have no Hornady manuals. I don't care if I do use their bullets.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
I'm a Hornady fan, but this is why I have no Hornady manuals. I don't care if I do use their bullets.
Click to expand...

Yep, spot on. I have a Hornady manual, but only because 50 Beowulf is on page 666;-) If you look at the 45 ACP 230 grain bullets, Hornady has them all lumped together, and I find it absolutely amazing that they show the SAME OAL for a 230 XTP AND 230 FMJ with the SAME load data. Well, if you load a 230 FMJ by HDY'd book data, you best not exceed HDY's charge, and the last box of HDY FMJ I had on hand, 1.21 put it off the ogive and the bullets were very prone to set back, so I don't even consider using their OAL anymore. In the OPs case, I would totally stick with the Western Data, and/or Hodgdon's current data for Accurate powders. FYI, the current edition of the Hodgdon magazine has all the Western Powders load data in it...best 12.00 bucks a reloader will ever spend is for that magazine.
 
EricBu said:
Yep, spot on. I have a Hornady manual, but only because 50 Beowulf is on page 666;-) If you look at the 45 ACP 230 grain bullets, Hornady has them all lumped together, and I find it absolutely amazing that they show the SAME OAL for a 230 XTP AND 230 FMJ with the SAME load data. Well, if you load a 230 FMJ by HDY'd book data, you best not exceed HDY's charge, and the last box of HDY FMJ I had on hand, 1.21 put it off the ogive and the bullets were very prone to set back, so I don't even consider using their OAL anymore. In the OPs case, I would totally stick with the Western Data, and/or Hodgdon's current data for Accurate powders. FYI, the current edition of the Hodgdon magazine has all the Western Powders load data in it...best 12.00 bucks a reloader will ever spend is for that magazine.
Click to expand...

I load 230 RN bullets to 1.250 because they will chamber in all my 1911's. I have a few 1911's with tight or short throats and a long cartridge will cause a very frustrating jam. Had this happen a number of times, the slide won't close, because the bullet is jammed in the throat, so the pistol cannot be fired due to the trigger disconnect. And, the bullet is jammed so hard in the throat that I cannot rack the slide with my hands. With 1911's with a standard recoil plug and spring, placing the barrel over the edge of a table, and pushing the recoil spring plug against the table, will clear the long round. It is a lot more fun with a full length guide rod! This is when I removed full length guide rods from my 1911's.

Bullets do vary in ogive, so if the OAL creeps to 1.260 because of ogive, not a real problem with my dies set to 1.250 with GI FMJ's. However, things do get loose and I recently had to beat the slide closed on a recent 1911 acquisition. Nothing wrong with the 1911, nor the block of wood I used on the back of the slide. It was due to over length 230 FMJ's. The seating die had unscrewed itself on my Dillion 550B and some rounds came out long. I went through the batch, and so rounds were about 1.7 something.

There are those who claim the only correct OAL is to the hood of a 1911 barrel. Supposedly it is enhances accuracy. I say phooey to this. No one I know can hold hard enough to tell if 0.10 in bullet jump makes a difference in a 1911. Ernest played around with crimp, and with powder charge, but his ammunition has to feed and extract through multiple target 1911's, so he just set the length to one standard that fed through them all, and does the sight alignment and trigger pull thing, without flinching.

9uK7aUJ.jpg

VOPjztG.jpg

okgU2U3.jpg

these are called bragging groups. And when you break the trigger, and not flinching, is a heck of a lot more important for group size than seating the bullet to the barrel hood.

Alibi's are score killers too.
 
Slamfire said:
I load 230 RN bullets to 1.250 because they will chamber in all my 1911's. I have a few 1911's with tight or short throats and a long cartridge will cause a very frustrating jam. Had this happen a number of times, the slide won't close, because the bullet is jammed in the throat, so the pistol cannot be fired due to the trigger disconnect. And, the bullet is jammed so hard in the throat that I cannot rack the slide with my hands. With 1911's with a standard recoil plug and spring, placing the barrel over the edge of a table, and pushing the recoil spring plug against the table, will clear the long round. It is a lot more fun with a full length guide rod! This is when I removed full length guide rods from my 1911's.

Bullets do vary in ogive, so if the OAL creeps to 1.260 because of ogive, not a real problem with my dies set to 1.250 with GI FMJ's. However, things do get loose and I recently had to beat the slide closed on a recent 1911 acquisition. Nothing wrong with the 1911, nor the block of wood I used on the back of the slide. It was due to over length 230 FMJ's. The seating die had unscrewed itself on my Dillion 550B and some rounds came out long. I went through the batch, and so rounds were about 1.7 something.

There are those who claim the only correct OAL is to the hood of a 1911 barrel. Supposedly it is enhances accuracy. I say phooey to this. No one I know can hold hard enough to tell if 0.10 in bullet jump makes a difference in a 1911. Ernest played around with crimp, and with powder charge, but his ammunition has to feed and extract through multiple target 1911's, so he just set the length to one standard that fed through them all, and does the sight alignment and trigger pull thing, without flinching.

View attachment 1078922

View attachment 1078923

View attachment 1078924

these are called bragging groups. And when you break the trigger, and not flinching, is a heck of a lot more important for group size than seating the bullet to the barrel hood.

Alibi's are score killers too.
Click to expand...
Interesting how different pistols behave differently. I shoot four 45acp government model 1911s of different manufacture. None behave (or misbehave) they way you describe.
 
CQB45ACP said:
Interesting how different pistols behave differently. I shoot four 45acp government model 1911s of different manufacture. None behave (or misbehave) they way you describe.
Click to expand...

I attract problems like a magnet.

CSdK1GS.jpg

friend of mine does not believe in maintaining his vehicles. His philosophy, "fix it when it breaks". He has had less problems than I have. Drives me nuts.

DX9XZcw.jpg
 
Slamfire said:
I load 230 RN bullets to 1.250 because they will chamber in all my 1911's. I have a few 1911's with tight or short throats and a long cartridge will cause a very frustrating jam. Had this happen a number of times, the slide won't close, because the bullet is jammed in the throat, so the pistol cannot be fired due to the trigger disconnect. And, the bullet is jammed so hard in the throat that I cannot rack the slide with my hands. With 1911's with a standard recoil plug and spring, placing the barrel over the edge of a table, and pushing the recoil spring plug against the table, will clear the long round. It is a lot more fun with a full length guide rod! This is when I removed full length guide rods from my 1911's.

Bullets do vary in ogive, so if the OAL creeps to 1.260 because of ogive, not a real problem with my dies set to 1.250 with GI FMJ's. However, things do get loose and I recently had to beat the slide closed on a recent 1911 acquisition. Nothing wrong with the 1911, nor the block of wood I used on the back of the slide. It was due to over length 230 FMJ's. The seating die had unscrewed itself on my Dillion 550B and some rounds came out long. I went through the batch, and so rounds were about 1.7 something.

There are those who claim the only correct OAL is to the hood of a 1911 barrel. Supposedly it is enhances accuracy. I say phooey to this. No one I know can hold hard enough to tell if 0.10 in bullet jump makes a difference in a 1911. Ernest played around with crimp, and with powder charge, but his ammunition has to feed and extract through multiple target 1911's, so he just set the length to one standard that fed through them all, and does the sight alignment and trigger pull thing, without flinching.

View attachment 1078922

View attachment 1078923

View attachment 1078924

these are called bragging groups. And when you break the trigger, and not flinching, is a heck of a lot more important for group size than seating the bullet to the barrel hood.

Alibi's are score killers too.
Click to expand...

Funny, 1.25 is the OAL I've settled on over the years. I use it for Berry's Plated, Zero FMJ, and RMR Bronze FMJ. Runs in all my guns, produces acceptable minute of bad guy accuracy, and if I do my part on the bench, will produce bragging groups with some of my guns. I've got maybe 10 45 ACP firearms of various makes and types, from a CMP 1911, to various other maker 1911s, to Glocks and XD's, and maybe a few other things springled in there. At least two of those will not go into battery with anything over 1.26. I have a MAC 10 carbine that will shoot anything, any OAL under about 1.3, any bullet type, it simply does not care what you put into it, it will chamber it and run, and will 30 round stick mag dump all day long. And the most bizaree thing is it will throw 1 inch groups at 20 yards with just about anything that came from the same lot. That stupid gun is so much fun to shoot that I even had the barrel rethreaded so I could use a SilencerCo ASR adapter and run my Hybrid 46 on it.
 
D9681E4F-8759-4E6E-80CB-DCD22BCAA381.jpeg
Slamfire said:
I attract problems like a magnet.

View attachment 1078941

friend of mine does not believe in maintaining his vehicles. His philosophy, "fix it when it breaks". He has had less problems than I have. Drives me nuts.

View attachment 1078942
Click to expand...
I know! Last week I donated a 56K mile 2009 Cadillac DTS to Salvation Army because it’s brakelines ALL needed replacement because they were rusted through and wouldn’t pass state inspection. The long lines would’ve required custom bending and no one would do it. Piece of cake job if I wasn’t 70!

The car was in amazing cosmetic condition in and out and was my go to the range car. I pampered the darn thing and maintained it according to the factory’s blood sucking schedule.

I forgot to remove my silhouette targets and several hundred spent cases from the trunk and the tow truck driver freaked out when he saw them.
 
CQB45ACP said:
I know. Kills me to not do it.
Click to expand...

Replaced a starter last week on a 70's vintage Chevrolet. My elbow still hurts. I never used to have tennis elbow wrench turning, nor did I feel so worn out at the end of the day. I don't like this old stuff, want to go in the other direction!

Move to Alabama. We don't do that State Inspection crap. If it will move under its own power, you are good to go. I love States where the residents have a lot of freedom.
 
Kingcreek said:
I found some forgotten 230g FMJ bullets. I’ve shot thousands of 200gr LSWC but hadn’t loaded FMJ for years.
I have good supply of Accurate #5 so I looked it up in Accurates material (printed from their website). They said starting load 7.8 going up to 8.7 max (or was it 8.4?). No problem so I loaded some up at 7.8. Cycled perfectly but felt real snappy. Thinking I’m just used to 200gr I thought nothing more of it and loaded a couple hundred more.
THEN I pulled my Hornady 8th off the shelf and it says MAX load is 7.9gr #5!
I also have W231 and use it for my 200gr loads but was thinking I would save it for that recipe.
I plan to get the chrono out to check velocity on the 230s but thought I would query here in the meantime.
Any thoughts or experience to share?
Click to expand...

Different caliber, similar circumstances. I load .357 mag using 158g Hornadys and W-296. The Winchester booklet says to use 16.6g of powder and not to reduce the load under ANY circumstances. The Hornady manual says you can use anywhere between 12 and 16g of powder and to never exceed 16g. Really makes me wonder about Hornady.
 
Copied from AA 8th Edition Load manual:

230 HDY XTP start 7.7 max 8.1 COL 1.210"
230 REM GS 8.2 8.6 1.225
230 SIERRA FMJ 8.7 9.1 1.270
230 (P) BERRY RN 8.0 9.0 1.237
230 (P) RAIN HP 8.2 8.7 1.237

Removed extra spaces
 
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The western powders manual for AA#5 is very hot. I was flattening primers with a "mid load" from their book of AA#5 and MBC or RMR bullets. I don't use their data for 45 anymore as I don't want max loads in an old government colt (mine is new from 2019 but I want it to get old)

Good reason to always work up and I for one appreciate Hornady consistently offering a conservative load for a given caliber. I always like to see what the Hornady max is even if I go with someone else's data ultimately for a given bullet.
 
CQB45ACP said:
View attachment 1078952
I know! Last week I donated a 56K mile 2009 Cadillac DTS to Salvation Army because it’s brakelines ALL needed replacement because they were rusted through and wouldn’t pass state inspection. The long lines would’ve required custom bending and no one would do it. Piece of cake job if I wasn’t 70!
.
Click to expand...

I’m 69 and still racing SCCA amateur road racing. Fortunately my H Production Honda Civic is fairly bullet proof. If it starts when it is time to go racing, I load it in the trailer

I use some Accurate #5 in 45 ACP 230 RN loads but I have not checked the current load data recently.

I use True Blue in 9x19 and have seen several data changes from Western Powders over the last 15 years or so. So, Accurate #5 could easily have the same issues with data changing over time due to changing manufacturers.
 
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