Rebirth of the 32 ACP?

Shivahasagun said:

All they did to beef up the Tomcat was fatten the slide about 10-15 years ago.

The frames still crack. The slide on my current version broke, too.

I knew the risks when I bought it. (New) it turns out all of the problems with it are true.

Oh, there are two very sharp prongs that make up the rear of the slide. You WILL cut yourself with those eventually handling or shooting and you will bleed.

It's the "happy fun ball" of .32 pistols. (Old Saturday night live skit)

If that .25 acp at your LGS is a Bobcat definitely buy it. If it's a Jetfire and you don't mind single-action only consider it.

I've had / have several of each. They do require some break-in but then run well. Beretta mags only.

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Yeah, but 32 ACP is already borderline for SD, so the 25 would be like below the minimum? Does Beretta make any larger guns with the tip-up barrel. That is my main attraction to the Tomcat.

Beretta used to make the 86 which looked to be the size of the 81/84 series but with a tip up barrel.
I may be remembering this wrong, but thought it was available in 9mm. I know the 81/84 series was .32acp & .380. Not sure if any were ever imported.

Mosin77 said:

7.62 Nagant = the Russians wanted a 30 cal revolver round sufficient to kill a horse.

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Kill a horse? Mine can't even put a bullet through a 2X4. I doubt it could kill a coyote, nevermind a horse.

CoalTrain49 said:

So did a lot of Luftwaffe pilots except they carried them in holsters.

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Like this one? Astra 300s were very popular with the Luftwaffe. This one was in the serial # range that was sent to the Luftwaffe. It has no waffenapt (?) markings because the Germans, for reasons unknown, never put Nazi markings on the .32s but did on the 380s.

This one is a sweet little shooter!

aaaaa said:

Yeah, but 32 ACP is already borderline for SD, so the 25 would be like below the minimum? Does Beretta make any larger guns with the tip-up barrel. That is my main attraction to the Tomcat.

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.32 acp from a short barrel offers a little more penetration than .25 but not much. Especially if you plan to use the weaker ammo Beretta reccomends in the Tomcat.

Your talking about 750-800 fps with a 71 gr bullet from the Tomcat. 875 fps with the hotter 73 gr ammo like Fiocchi & S&B.

.25 acp a 50 gr bullet at 700-850 fps.

.22lr from a 2.2 in barrel and higher power ammo like Velocitors can get up to that 850 fps but a lighter (40 gr) softer lead bullets. The .22 tip ups also hold less rounds and are less reliable.

wesmonster said:

Beretta used to make the 86 which looked to be the size of the 81/84 series but with a tip up barrel.
I may be remembering this wrong, but thought it was available in 9mm. I know the 81/84 series was .32acp & .380. Not sure if any were ever imported.

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Yes the 86 is an 8+1 tip up they stopped making years back. They are over $1k now if you can find one. .380 only.

The Beretta model 81 is 12+1 .32
82 9+1 .32
84 13+1 .380
85 8+1 .380

All available in the US.

The cool thing is these .32's and .380's can be swapped easily!

Put a .380 barrel and mag in your .32 and you're shooting .380 and vice-versa.

The 82 even shares mags.

Same springs, ejectors, extractors, slides and frames. (Except markings of course)

.380's can slap a little to some folks. The 32's are closer to a .22.

Hot .32 acp, like S&b 73gr, averages 950-1000 fps (batch dependent) from my 81's.

Cheetahs are extremely reliable in either caliber.

I like .32 ACP and shooting it for range practice is excellent. One of those, yeah - I could shoot this all day from my CZ-70, which is like a Walther PP size. I just wish it was a bit cheaper and reloading it is kind of a pain with those tiny little cases.

tark said:

Kill a horse? Mine can't even put a bullet through a 2X4. I doubt it could kill a coyote, nevermind a horse.

!

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Yeah, really, that was the design parameter! The Fiocchi and PPU commercial ammo seems very light. The Russians also had a bunch of target ammo made that was very light, but their combat ammo is quite a bit hotter. Definitely nowhere close to the powderpuff target loads. The clunky and over-engineered gas seal design was intended to squeeze an extra bit of oomph from the round to achieve their desired level of penetration. The idea was that double action wastes ammo anyway so DA could be pretty heavy, anybody really using their revolver responsibly would surely be firing single action.

tark said:

Kill a horse? Mine can't even put a bullet through a 2X4. I doubt it could kill a coyote, nevermind a horse.

Like this one? Astra 300s were very popular with the Luftwaffe. This one was in the serial # range that was sent to the Luftwaffe. It has no waffenapt (?) markings because the Germans, for reasons unknown, never put Nazi markings on the .32s but did on the 380s.

This one is a sweet little shooter!

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I like Astras. Have only fired about 30 rds from one using .38 acp.

Worked fine and despite the bore looking rough it was accurate.

aaaaa said:

Yeah, but 32 ACP is already borderline for SD, so the 25 would be like below the minimum? Does Beretta make any larger guns with the tip-up barrel. That is my main attraction to the Tomcat.

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While I'm no fan of the .25, I won't disparage it as it's capable if like Paul Harrell says in that you aim at the correct target, which is the head, face, and neck.

The reason I don't care to pay money to own a .25 is Kel Tec makes a .32 as light as any .25 has ever been made and is nearly as small. While .32 is itself not ideal, it's the best caliber for a true pocket gun because it offers better ballistics than .22 or .25 and less recoil and wear & tear on a small gun than .380 does

However, there are bound to be some people who can't rack a slide on a pistol and for them tip up barrels may be their best option and the .32 Tomcat is a terrible gun, thus the .25 comes into play. If they're not planning to shoot it that much a .32 Tomcat may be an option, but I don't think they're worth the money, I'd just as soon get that person with weak hands a Taurus .327 revolver loaded with .32 S&W wadcutters. Cost less than a Tomcat and is built better.

TTv2 said:

While I'm no fan of the .25, I won't disparage it as it's capable if like Paul Harrell says in that you aim at the correct target, which is the head, face, and neck.

The reason I don't care to pay money to own a .25 is Kel Tec makes a .32 as light as any .25 has ever been made and is nearly as small. While .32 is itself not ideal, it's the best caliber for a true pocket gun because it offers better ballistics than .22 or .25 and less recoil and wear & tear on a small gun than .380 does

However, there are bound to be some people who can't rack a slide on a pistol and for them tip up barrels may be their best option and the .32 Tomcat is a terrible gun, thus the .25 comes into play. If they're not planning to shoot it that much a .32 Tomcat may be an option, but I don't think they're worth the money, I'd just as soon get that person with weak hands a Taurus .327 revolver loaded with .32 S&W wadcutters. Cost less than a Tomcat and is built better.

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The P32 is probably the most reliable gun Keltec makes. Weve had about 4 in the family, all good. I still have one thats had about 1200 rds fired from it. It was carried alot, has some rust on the barrel, but I've changed the springs and it still works perfectly. Only malfunctioned once. And that a rim lock when the relative loaded it with jhp. Don't do that.

My beef with the P32 is it's very thin, trigger long has to come back to the point that the LOP is very short, and then it has a very long reset. That all adds up to not being very accurate or fast.

I shoot a Beretta 950 or M21 faster and more accurately so that's what I carry over the P32.

Personal preference. But the P32 is actually a pretty decent gun and you can practice alot vs the snappy .380's. I prefer it over the .380's like the P3at, LCP, etc.

The Taurus .327 or .32 mag revolver is a good option if you dont want to spring for the superior LCR .327. (Have two of these LCR .327 in the family)

I'm a fan of the P32 and carried one for quite awhile. Agree with Shivahasagun about its reliability and mine were always 100%. However of late I've moved to a revolver for EDC, a S&W 432PD, 32H&RM.

My hands are the issue, my grip strength not the best. TTv2 alluded to this in his post below:

TTv2 said:

I'd just as soon get that person with weak hands a Taurus .327 revolver loaded with .32 S&W wadcutters. Cost less than a Tomcat and is built better.

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That pretty much applies to me, so I'm just more confident with the revolver at this point. Glad to have choices.

Mosin77 said:

Yeah, really, that was the design parameter! The Fiocchi and PPU commercial ammo seems very light. The Russians also had a bunch of target ammo made that was very light, but their combat ammo is quite a bit hotter. Definitely nowhere close to the powderpuff target loads. The clunky and over-engineered gas seal design was intended to squeeze an extra bit of oomph from the round to achieve their desired level of penetration. The idea was that double action wastes ammo anyway so DA could be pretty heavy, anybody really using their revolver responsibly would surely be firing single action.

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I have fired some Russian surplus in my Nagant. It seemed a little more powerful than the PPU but not by much. It did go through a 2x4 however. Maybe it was just old.

I'm not so much into the .32 ACP pocket pistols,,,
But since I was one of the many people who purchased a Beretta 81 from Classic Firearms,,,
I'm happy to know that someone out there is making effective self-defense rounds for that caliber.

13 rounds of that Cavitator ammo would ruin a bad guys day.

Aarond

.

aarondhgraham said:

I'm happy to know that someone out there is making effective self-defense rounds for that caliber.
.

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supposed to be some good SD ammo at Buffalo Bore:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132
of this ammo Buffalo Bore says,

The best chance of survival for you and your loved ones is to shut down the attacker instantly. So, we've designed this 32 ACP+P load to keep you and yours alive under the worst of scenarios.

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aaaaa said:

supposed to be some good SD ammo at Buffalo Bore:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=132
of this ammo Buffalo Bore says,

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This 75 gr ammo averaged about 950 fps from my M81FS. I was hoping for a little more.

I've got some Underwood solid copper +p but haven't tested it yet. Hand fed it sometimes feeds and sometimes does not. The OAL is short, too. When it does feed it's not smooth. I would only use it for the first shot. (in chamber, fmj in magazine)

The Buffalo Bore ammo was the same way.

The M81 is 100% reliable with FMJ. Anything else one should vet carefully.

Shivahasagun said:

This 75 gr ammo averaged about 950 fps from my M81FS. I was hoping for a little more.

I've got some Underwood solid copper +p but haven't tested it yet. Hand fed it sometimes feeds and sometimes does not. The OAL is short, too. When it does feed it's not smooth. I would only use it for the first shot. (in chamber, fmj in magazine)

The Buffalo Bore ammo was the same way.

The M81 is 100% reliable with FMJ. Anything else one should vet carefully.

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This chart has the performance of many brands 32 ACP. The Buffalo Bore rates higher than you experienced, but there are several in the chart that are way higher than the Buffalo Bore.
http://www.ballistics101.com/32_acp.php

Also some ballistics charts here for 3 and 4 inch barrels that show best penetration of those tested is Fiocchi.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/the-best-32-acp-ammo-for-self-defense/

Since the 32 ACP is questioned for SD purposes and the next step up is the 380 ACP, let's compare the two.

Obviously the frontal area of the bullet is bigger with the 380 (0.099 sq in) vs the 32 (0.077 sq in). But the max pressure is about the same:

32 ACP: 20,500 psi
380 ACP: 21,500 psi

So at this pressure would either of these in a pocket pistol actually get expansion of a hollow point?

As I am not a ballistics expert and hardly even a ballistics hack (but am working towards it), there is probably a LOT more to it, so someone help me out here and tell me where the 380 outshines the 32 and where the two are comparable.

aaaaa said:

Since the 32 ACP is questioned for SD purposes and the next step up is the 380 ACP, let's compare the two.

Obviously the frontal area of the bullet is bigger with the 380 (0.099 sq in) vs the 32 (0.077 sq in). But the max pressure is about the same:

32 ACP: 20,500 psi
380 ACP: 21,500 psi

So at this pressure would either of these in a pocket pistol actually get expansion of a hollow point?

As I am not a ballistics expert and hardly even a ballistics hack (but am working towards it), there is probably a LOT more to it, so someone help me out here and tell me where the 380 outshines the 32 and where the two are comparable.

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From your link, there is one 32 that consistently expands from a 3'' barrel:
32 CorBon 13.7''/.39

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
380 Hornady FTX 13.2''/.52
380 Sig VCrown 12.8''/.51

My personal minimum, as a 2nd gun (AKA "back-up) or if I had to work in a NPE (I'm not tucking my shirt otherwise) is Kahr PM9.

aaaaa said:

Since the 32 ACP is questioned for SD purposes and the next step up is the 380 ACP, let's compare the two.

Obviously the frontal area of the bullet is bigger with the 380 (0.099 sq in) vs the 32 (0.077 sq in). But the max pressure is about the same:

32 ACP: 20,500 psi
380 ACP: 21,500 psi

So at this pressure would either of these in a pocket pistol actually get expansion of a hollow point?

As I am not a ballistics expert and hardly even a ballistics hack (but am working towards it), there is probably a LOT more to it, so someone help me out here and tell me where the 380 outshines the 32 and where the two are comparable.

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It may or may not go against the grain, but I use only FMJ in my pocket sized .380s and any size of my .32s. For reliability and penetration reasons.

I do use JHPs in revolvers and 9mm (and up) self defense pistols.

I prefer 32 for my self-defense choice over any of the 9mm family; Corto, Makarov or Luger, but my reasoning has nothing to do with expansion rather it is based on location, Location, LOCATION and repeatability.

I find that I can control and follow up better and faster with 32acp than I can with the many larger calibers I have and enjoy. I do limit my ammo choices to FMJ but primarily because it's cheaper and so I practice with FMJ more often and I want to assure adequate penetration.

jar said:

I prefer 32 for my self-defense choice over any of the 9mm family; Corto, Makarov or Luger, but my reasoning has nothing to do with expansion rather it is based on location, Location, LOCATION and repeatability.

I find that I can control and follow up better and faster with 32acp than I can with the many larger calibers I have and enjoy. I do limit my ammo choices to FMJ but primarily because it's cheaper and so I practice with FMJ more often and I want to assure adequate penetration.

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Are you carrying a mouse gun or a larger 32? I wonder if there are any larger 32s still being made, something that will hold a lot of rounds in the magazine.

aaaaa said:

Are you carrying a mouse gun or a larger 32? I wonder if there are any larger 32s still being made, something that will hold a lot of rounds in the magazine.

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How many rounds is a lot of rounds? I've never really paid much attention to how many rounds a handgun has as standard.

Never really worried about whether the gun was a mouse or rat but today it's a Beretta first generation 'New Puma' model 70 with the cross bolt safety.

jar said:

How many rounds is a lot of rounds? I've never really paid much attention to how many rounds a handgun has as standard.

Never really worried about whether the gun was a mouse or rat but today it's a Beretta first generation 'New Puma' model 70 with the cross bolt safety.

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Looks like you are in the range of about 7-10 round magazine capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_70

My Kel Tec P32 is a mouse and it holds 7+1 rounds, so i would have thought the larger pistol could hold more which might be the 10 round capacity. Wonder why they don't double stack the 32 ACP. Then I would expect 16 + round capacity, but maybe the riim-lock potential goes way up on a double stack.

aaaaa said:

Looks like you are in the range of about 7-10 round magazine capacity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_70

My Kel Tec P32 is a mouse and it holds 7+1 rounds, so i would have thought the larger pistol could hold more which might be the 10 round capacity. Wonder why they don't double stack the 32 ACP. Then I would expect 16 + round capacity, but maybe the riim-lock potential goes way up on a double stack.

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I can't really imagine needing very many rounds in any civilian incident.

I have a few handguns that hold more than 10 cartridges in the standard configuration but can't remember the last time I ever considered them for use other than at the range.

jar said:

I can't really imagine needing very many rounds in any civilian incident.

I have a few handguns that hold more than 10 cartridges in the standard configuration but can't remember the last time I ever considered them for use other than at the range.

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Only with multiple attackers or a fentynol hyped guy who is dead set to kill you. He might take more than 10 rounds of 9mm to stop. So for most incidents, no, we do not need that much firepower.