Have we made progress?? Are we safer?

Australian410hunter said:

Now, in our world of licenses, people scared of guns, and loud noises, have we made progress? Was the loss of freedom worth it? Have we lost more than we gained? Have we gone too far?

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Yes we've definitely lost more than we've gained and gone way too far. A couple posters mentioned Buffalo shooter, well I read a media report that stated, he, the shooter modified his weapon to take more bullets, WHAT? Well since the safe law was passed a limit of ten rounds, so he acquired a few standard capacity. 30 round mags. I'm not saying that what the shooter did was right, justifiable, but the reporting is a blatant lie, and yhe sheep will believe it due to ignorance.

WisBorn said:

Yes, like I said a violence problem. What are we doing about the white supremacy that the Buffalo murderer acted on or the mental illness that the New York subway shooter acted on. Both of these shooters were already under the authorities radar!

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Yhe same thing that we're doing about rappers " singing" about busting caps into crackers.

Like the OP, I remember similar times in the rural area I lived in. People did not get upset over anything, except if something bad happened like a storm then everyone pitched in and helped. IT would be unheard of to interfere with others freedom. Now everyone thinks they are gestapo, and you can't do anything without upsetting some bunch of Karens. Sad. The deep state is getting creepier by the day.

One of the many things that gun control advocates get wrong (whether intentionally or not) is the assumption that safety is paramount and that everyone sees it as such. Even if they could provide undisputed evidence that more gun control equals greater safety, there are people, myself included, that would still prefer freedom over safety.

I grew up in a coastal town in Oregon.
When I became 13 years old my dad enrolled me in hunters safety class. I was proud and looked forward to our deer hunting every year with friends and family.
At age 16 we moved away to the valley, away from all my buds and into a new school.
My mother put me on a Grayhound bus from Salem Oregon to the coastal town I grew up In to meet up with my friends to make opening day of deer season
I boarded the bus with my Winchester model 70 30-06 out of the case and tossed it in the overhead, ammo in my pack.
No one asked about it or even blinked an eye!
This was about 78'

giggitygiggity said:

One of the many things that gun control advocates get wrong (whether intentionally or not) is the assumption that safety is paramount and that everyone sees it as such. Even if they could provide undisputed evidence that more gun control equals greater safety, there are people, myself included, that would still prefer freedom over safety.

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Safety and protection are buzz words that really mean an excuse for taking away freedoms. They have made a cult of safety. I wasn't much of a consideration when I grew up. It was in the 60's that the started attacking the car industry and spread from there. Now it is either for our own good or the children.

If you create an ignorance, then swoop in and protect people from tools that can kill you if your stupid then yes we have allowed ourselves to be way over regulated by not educating as many people as possible....

In my opinion both sides have "gone too far". I'm old enough to remember walking through my suburban neighborhood, as a pre-teen, on my way to the local drainage canal carrying a Crossman pellet gun. I remember being allowed, as a 18 year old high school student, to have a rifle in a gun rack in the rear window of my pickup truck as long as I parked across the street from the high school and not on "school grounds". I also remember going to gun shows and not seeing anything "tactical". So yes, in my mind both sides have gone too far.

Well once upon a time we had no background checks or FFL's, so it has to be a people problem that won't ever be lessened by focusing on the tool murderers use

Untill I was around 60 years old I never owned a gun that was made to be used against people (Self Defense/Home protection). I never thought of guns that way. Every gun I owned were for Hunting/Target Shooting. Never did I think I would ever need a gun for that reason. 45 years of owning guns I never kept a loaded gun in the house . Just didn't. Now I keep 3. What in the **** Happened. ==== I Used **** cause I can't spell Heck.

I grew up in KY. Kentucky did not get concealed carry until 1996 when I was 29 years old (Though I was able to carry before that as a cop).
Going from not having concealed carry to having it is major progress, IMO. Many states have made that progress in the last 30 years.
I'm of the opinion that wherever regular law abiding people can't conceal carry its not really freedom; freedom includes concealed carry.

I dont think you can objectively compare "today" with "past".

Its just diffrent times, diffent moral codes and diffent general stress level.
In last years/decades we, regardless in which country, had to deal with new infuences and threats.
That also means more sources of stress
There is also much more ppl (generally) everywhere, meaning its not like old times when everybody knew theirs neighbors and there was some sort of local "social credit" (like "oh, thats old Bills kid going to hunt squirrels" instead "i never saw this guy and he have gun")

For example - there wasnt much of change in Czech gun laws in past 30 years and in that time there was huge changes in crime count in generall.
But gun crimes?
It keeps declining (but now its on such a low level that even one gun crime means like 30% of all gun crimes in year)
Absolute majority dont need and dont feel need to have gun (there is about 330k gun owners in Czech, including game keepers, per almost 11 milion citizens)

Is it because gun laws?
Not quite, i would say.

Till revolution in 1989 there was a big presence of Warsaws (soviets) pact soldiers and when they had to move out... they "lost" A LOT of theirs firearms (and other equipment). They were litterally changing Akms for packs of cigarets or goods valuable in theirs country.

After revolution there was a lot of illegal, untracable weapons, a lot of "revolutionaries", a lot of "broken dreams" and a lot of crime. We dont talk about that much, but it was quite a wild land. Firm communists hand was gone and ppl wasnt sure how to look at "new" LE organizations

Now i can and have legally few weapons and i carry... pepper spray most of the time. Dont get me wrong, i like to carry my gun and it just feels right on my belt, yet there is not really reasson. I know its absolutly difffrent view than in US and somebody will say that i will regret it when suddenly a psycho with fullauto will jump form bushes, but that chance is here much more slimer and more likely i will be engaged in some citizen dispute where gun will be more a burden

Just wanted to point on fact that gun laws, gun restriction and its effects are much more complex and non-snad-alone topic

Idahou said:

I dont think you can objectively compare "today" with "past".

Its just diffrent times, diffent moral codes and diffent general stress level.
In last years/decades we, regardless in which country, had to deal with new infuences and threats.
That also means more sources of stress
There is also much more ppl (generally) everywhere, meaning its not like old times when everybody knew theirs neighbors and there was some sort of local "social credit" (like "oh, thats old Bills kid going to hunt squirrels" instead "i never saw this guy and he have gun")

For example - there wasnt much of change in Czech gun laws in past 30 years and in that time there was huge changes in crime count in generall.
But gun crimes?
It keeps declining (but now its on such a low level that even one gun crime means like 30% of all gun crimes in year)
Absolute majority dont need and dont feel need to have gun (there is about 330k gun owners in Czech, including game keepers, per almost 11 milion citizens)

Is it because gun laws?
Not quite, i would say.

Till revolution in 1989 there was a big presence of Warsaws (soviets) pact soldiers and when they had to move out... they "lost" A LOT of theirs firearms (and other equipment). They were litterally changing Akms for packs of cigarets or goods valuable in theirs country.

After revolution there was a lot of illegal, untracable weapons, a lot of "revolutionaries", a lot of "broken dreams" and a lot of crime. We dont talk about that much, but it was quite a wild land. Firm communists hand was gone and ppl wasnt sure how to look at "new" LE organizations

Now i can and have legally few weapons and i carry... pepper spray most of the time. Dont get me wrong, i like to carry my gun and it just feels right on my belt, yet there is not really reasson. I know its absolutly difffrent view than in US and somebody will say that i will regret it when suddenly a psycho with fullauto will jump form bushes, but that chance is here much more slimer and more likely i will be engaged in some citizen dispute where gun will be more a burden

Just wanted to point on fact that gun laws, gun restriction and its effects are much more complex and non-snad-alone topic

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Always appreciate your perspective.

Some people made progress- the people that are against guns- both in Oz and the US. I like to think that responsible gun owners have made some progress in the US as well- sometimes we get a loss, sometimes a win- but that is the back-and-forth of current times. Bottom line, we have more restrictions in place now that we did 50, 100, 200 years ago. And no, neither country is safer.

Instead of gun control, the real problem is car control. There’s no reason for an 18 year old to be able to own a car with a high capacity fuel tank like that! That shooter was able to drive a couple hundred miles to where he did the shooting. And, that “assault car” was able to attain highway speeds to get there. Crazy! Those high vehicle speeds, combined with the high capacity fuel tank, enabled him to commit this heinous crime. It was the cars fault! We need to control them!

Blarrrghhhh!!!!

A growing segment of society believes in safety as a right, whereas their personal safety is the responsibility of the government, whether local, state, or federal, even though it is not enumerated under Constitutional protections. With generations living in relative safety and comfort for several decades, not only has it become the accepted norm, but an expectation. This is unnatural and unrealistic, and when reality happens, people are unprepared and unable to deal with it realistically and rationally. We have generations who are not just unwilling but unable to take responsibility for their own security, and don't understand why anyone else would want to do so, and they freak out when the authorities who are supposed to protect them can't. They don't see it as a failing of the authorities, or unrealistic expectations of them. The don't see it as failure in their own responsibilities because they don't believe they have those responsibilities. When we approach debate with these people we need to realize we are approaching the debate from completely different world views.

I truly believe in personal responsibility, and that the opposing viewpoint is based on a false premise, if not downright foolish, but I understand to some extent how it came about. The problem is that refusal or inability to take responsibility for safety and security leads to lack of responsibility in other areas, and a society thusly composed is more likely to become a society of victims.

To answer the questions, no, I believe that we have not progressed, and we are not safer. Quite the opposite.

I don't want to mimic what has already been said here, much of it insightful. I blame two factors as the most egregious in creating our "shared perspective" of increased violence/hatred: 1) a progressively weaponized media 2) the push of victim mentality; blaming some "other" group for one's station in life rather than taking personal responsibility for one's actions and its result.

Australian410hunter said:

Have we created more offenders, by creating more laws

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Well, if you make new laws that only bind the law-abiding gun owners, then you are making innocent people guilty.

Criminals generally do not obey laws. Adding laws does not decrease the number of criminals, it just increases the number of violations.

This is the flaw with "there oughta be a law!" notion. It gives legislators something to do, but does not address the problem.

"In my opinion both sides have "gone too far". I'm old enough to remember walking through my suburban neighborhood, as a pre-teen, on my way to the local drainage canal carrying a Crossman pellet gun. I remember being allowed, as a 18 year old high school student, to have a rifle in a gun rack in the rear window of my pickup truck as long as I parked across the street from the high school and not on "school grounds". I also remember going to gun shows and not seeing anything "tactical". So yes, in my mind both sides have gone too far."

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement. Perhaps you could elaborate?

How have 2nd amendment supportors gone too far?

Insignificant bill said:

How have 2nd amendment supportors gone too far?

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Exactly. So far I have not seen a pro -2A group force firearms into anyones hands. I don’t know of any hunting associations banning lever actions and bolt guns to force hunter to use a semi-auto.

But there seem to be many humans with an irrational fear of firearms that would gladly take someone else’s, even though it has no effect on their own life and safety.

It’s hard to debate these humans because logic has no effect on their thought process. One can’t refute feelings and belief with facts, it’s their religion. It’s not that they won’t listen, it’s that they don’t even hear it. None are so blind as those who refuse to see.


And for the record, every 303, Garand, 30carbine, k-31, beautifully stocked Mauser, S&W revolver and 1911 is a “tactical” blah, blah, blah… it doesn’t matter, they aren’t listening. They won’t care that sniper teams use bolt action hunting rifles.
Humans will always judge based upon what their eye sees, mixed with what their brains perceive.

We are shallow. Thinking is hard. Doing, even harder. Doing right, for others, not ourselves, the most hard.

It all comes back to teaching kids and getting them involved.

Last year I taught a young man firearms safety and the basics of how guns work and how to properly shoot. (He is a friend of my kid) Showed him SA and DA revolvers and semi autos. Went over the 4 safety rules twice. Then how to load and unload, then I let him shoot a G19. He was thrilled and soaked up the experience. He said it was nothing like the movies. I reminded him of the 4 rules for a third time before he left and he now has an understanding of firearms that no screaming anti can clutter.

I know most everyone on THR has done similar but we need to do this sort of thing more often IMO. It’s one of those ground roots things that really makes a difference for life.

Australian410hunter said:

Was the loss of freedom worth it?

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I don’t know a ton about your Country but here the people that take our freedoms still retain them for themselves. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, life long author and pusher of all legislation anti gun, has carried a concealed firearm saying “If someone was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me.” She “gets it”. She just doesn’t want the same rules for the people she rules over, same with others like her. She probably doesn’t pack heat anymore but she’s had constant security personnel (we pay for) for decades now.