Texas Resident Buying a Gun in KS

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AlexanderA said:
If you have income from a state, but don't live there, they tax you on that income as a non-resident. If you are considered a resident, they tax you on all your income. Double-taxation credits may apply. (Just to clarify, since this is slightly off-topic.)
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This may very well be a true statement, but it's irrelevant to our discussion.

The federal laws (and regulations) that define "State of Residence" are different for the subject of taxation and for firearms.

It's important not to confuse the two.
 
AlexanderA said:
This ruling does not answer the question, because it hinges on the meaning of "actually resides."
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It means what it means. ATF says so right here:
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a - 2 - State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State.
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Again, that comes down to intent.
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We know that, because ATF addresses that in the ruling. How do you show your intent?
, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
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Again for at least the hundredth time on THR, the OP can take his Texas drivers license and additional government issued documents bearing his name and his current residence address in Kansas to the gun dealer.

If the OP can't or won't get those documents? He cannot show his intent and the dealer will not transfer if the OP fills out the 4473 with his KS address.


What a mess.
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Not in the least.



In practice, this means that he can buy guns in both states.
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Of course it does! Thats what the rest of us have been saying for over a decade.




Since he presumably retains his Texas driver's license and his home (parents' ?) in Texas, he can return on any given weekend from OU and buy a gun in Texas. Then, when he's at his dorm at OU, he can buy a gun there. (Proving residence in Oklahoma would be a bit more complicated.)
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Freedom....why does you hate it?o_O

Like many things originating at ATF, logic seems to have nothing to do with this.
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I disagree. IMO. ATF is interpreting federal law correctly in regards to what is a persons "state of residence".....its simply WHERE THEY RESIDE.
Those that refuse to acknowledge the simplicity of this requirement and conflate the issue with irrelevant terms such as home state, domicile, statuatory resident, permanent address, etc likely do so because they have difficulty with how easily it is to simply reside in a state.

For purposes of paying taxes, voting, etc. a state is free to determine who is/is not considered a resident for those purposes. Interestingly, many states will charge professional athletes state income tax for the games they play in that state. Ex. Dallas Mavericks players will have California state income taxes deducted from their paychecks for the games they play in California.....despite not being a resident or employed by a company in California. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax
 
Same deal for me, 2 different states though.
Living in FL., working in OR. for 2 years.
I flew home to get guns already owned.

For new gun purchases I went to a gun store to get the low down on buying.
It turns out all I needed was a copy of my apartment lease agreement to show residency and/or a recent power (electric/gas) bill would have worked too.

I had a local Barney Fife following me around because I had a Florida tag (no front tag) and said I needed Oregon tags after 60 days.
He staked out my apartment/truck.
So, I would look for him when leaving for work, and if he was there, I'd go back in and get my bicycle and ride it to work on the bike trail, so he couldn't follow me.
:neener:
Edit: I went to a gun store for advise on residency for purchasing a gun and followed that advise.
What I did fulfilled the FFL dealer's requirements, whether that was "legal" or not was no concern of mine at the time.

The letter of the law or how it would be interpreted by a lawyer never occurred to me as I considered the FFL dealer to be knowledgeable about HIS business, and could have called someone if not.
He answered my questions quickly as if he had been there before, kind of like the Lion at the gate...
In my view, the Dealer would be responsible if any further discussions with any government agency about the transaction, because I did everything he asked of me.
The address on my lease agreement matched the address on the 4473.
jmo,
.
 
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Tilos said:
For new gun purchases I went to a gun store to get the low down on buying.
It turns out all I needed was a copy of my apartment lease agreement to show residency

.
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Nope. Nope. Nope.

No one ever reads the instructions.:(

and/or a recent power (electric/gas/cable) bill would have worked too.
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Only if that utility is a government entity.
 
N555 said:
I don't think you can buy a handgun as a non resident anywhere anymore.
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Pretty sure you can if the the gun is a C&R and you have the license.

I know I did exactly that , once. It's how I got my Astra 300
 
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Sovblocgunfan said:
my per diem will be tax free for first 12 mos-I will be considered permanent resident after that
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Are you in the military or a civilian that is working for the military? If yes, then that does make a difference in this conversation.

The whole time I was in the service, my home of record was Missouri and I maintained my Mo DL. My Mo. address was considered my permanent address. I was still able to buy firearms to include pistols in each state I was stationed in. I just had to show a copy of my orders stationing me in that state along with my Mo DL at the time of purchase.
 
AlexanderA said:
This ruling does not answer the question, because it hinges on the meaning of "actually resides." Again, that comes down to intent.

What a mess. In practice, this means that he can buy guns in both states. Since he presumably retains his Texas driver's license and his home (parents' ?) in Texas, he can return on any given weekend from OU and buy a gun in Texas. Then, when he's at his dorm at OU, he can buy a gun there. (Proving residence in Oklahoma would be a bit more complicated.)

Like many things originating at ATF, logic seems to have nothing to do with this.
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No it wouldn't you would have a student ID and you could obtain a State ID card.
 
I live in Kansas City and I can tell you first hand how it works.

I live on the missouri side of the state line, and while not in KC proper (thank god) close enough to be in one of the bedroom communities. The greater "metro" area is quite large, if going north south you will spend well over an hour before you leave the "city", same east west.

For both states if you live in MO, or KS and buy a long gun you can take it with you. If a hand gun it will need to be shipped to a dealer in your state of residence and then you pick it up there. FTF is only legal if both parties live in the same state.....unless.

The gun show loophole. There you can buy form an individual from both states, but dealers still need to ship to someone at your home state.

Lived in the metro for all my 50+ years and it has worked this way as long as I can remember....don't think it has changed.
 
Folks, It's not 60 posts difficult!!!:what:
Living here in Florida half the
residents" are snow birds and "maintain"intention of making a home a home in other States. They buy guns here and there.
 
12Bravo20 said:
Are you in the military or a civilian that is working for the military? If yes, then that does make a difference in this conversation.

The whole time I was in the service, my home of record was Missouri and I maintained my Mo DL. My Mo. address was considered my permanent address. I was still able to buy firearms to include pistols in each state I was stationed in. I just had to show a copy of my orders stationing me in that state along with my Mo DL at the time of purchase.
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Civilians working for the military must abide by the same restrictions as those working for WalMart.
What the military considers as your "home state" or "permanent address" is immaterial. Those have no meaning in regards to federal laws regarding acquiring firearms.
Again, the instructions on the Form 4473 and the above ATF Ruling apply.
If the transferee/buyer is a member of the Armed Forces on active duty, his/her State of residence is the State in which his/her permanent duty station is located. If the service member is acquiring a firearm in a State where his/her permanent duty station is located, but resides in a different State, the transferee/buyer must list both his/her permanent duty station address and residence address. If the transferee/buyer has two States of residence, the transferee/buyer should list his/her current residence address (e.g., if the transferee/buyer is purchasing a firearm while staying at his/her weekend home in State X, list the address in State X).
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So......a member of the Armed Forces, on active duty, who is from Texas and has a Texas drivers license, but is stationed in Alaska, can buy a firearm in Alaska just as any other resident of Alaska could. Whether he can buy a firearm in Texas depends on if he at any point resides in Texas. Just having the TX drivers license doesn't make him a resident of Texas for the purposes of acquiring firearms.

If a member of the Armed Forces, on active duty, who is from Missouri, has a Missouri drivers license, lives in Oklahoma but is stationed in Texas..........he can acquire firearms in both Texas and Oklahoma the same as any other resident of those states. Whether he can buy a firearm in Missouri depends on if he ever actually resides in Missouri.
 
Remington1911 said:
The gun show loophole. There you can buy form an individual from both states, but dealers still need to ship to someone at your home state.
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Nope.Nope.Nope!!!!!!!!!!:cuss:
First, there is no such thing as "gun show loophole".....thats the anti gun mantra for nonlicensee sales to other nonlicensees. Thats ALWAYS been perfectly legal as long as both are residents of the same state and the sale or transfer occurs in that state.
If you are a resident of Missouri, travel to a gun show in Kansas, you can ONLY acquire a rifle or shotgun from a licensed dealer. If you acquire a firearm of any type from someone not licensed as a gun dealer you both violate federal law. Federal felony. Never own or possess a firearm again.

If you see a gun for sale by a nonlicensee outside your state of residence, it MUST be transferred by a licensed dealer in your state or if a rifle or shotgun via a licensed dealer in that state.


Lived in the metro for all my 50+ years and it has worked this way as long as I can remember....don't think it has changed.
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It's been this way since 1968, virtually your entire life.
 
This is something we see in Florida A LOT. Many snowbirds with dual residence in other states. Long guns are ok. Handguns require a government document showing their address in Florida. If they have an out of state driver's license, they will put their Florida address on the 4473 and provide a government document with that Florida address. It can be a hunting/fishing license, tax documents from the state/county, vehicle registration, or utilities bill if that utility is government owned (in this area water bill is ok, electric is private owned).
 
dogtown tom said:
If a member of the Armed Forces, on active duty, who is from Missouri, has a Missouri drivers license, lives in Oklahoma but is stationed in Texas..........he can acquire firearms in both Texas and Oklahoma the same as any other resident of those states. Whether he can buy a firearm in Missouri depends on if he ever actually resides in Missouri.
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Unless things have changed since I retired from the Army and also since I gave up my FFL, then you are not correct on some of this.

I was still able to legally purchase firearms, to include handguns, here in Missouri while on leave and also legally purchase firearms in what ever state I was stationed in. I did both while I was in the Army and never broke any federal or state laws. The only state that I was stationed in that I did not purchase anything was Massachusetts since their state laws were very strict even in 1991.

While home on leave at Christmas time 1994, I legally purchased a 1911 here in Missouri. My next duty station was Ft Irwin California. While there, I purchased other pistols legally from the local FFL and all I had to show was my Missouri DL and a copy of my orders stationing me in California. Again no federal or state laws were broken.

I'm not saying that the regulations have or have not changed since then. They may very well have. But at that time I was completely legal in all of my firearm purchases from FFLs. I dealt with similar situations when I had my Type 02 FFL (pawn broker).
 
12Bravo20 said:
Unless things have changed since I retired from the Army and also since I gave up my FFL, then you are not correct on some of this.

I was still able to legally purchase firearms, to include handguns, here in Missouri while on leave and also legally purchase firearms in what ever state I was stationed in. I did both while I was in the Army and never broke any federal or state laws. The only state that I was stationed in that I did not purchase anything was Massachusetts since their state laws were very strict even in 1991.
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I'm correct on every single bit. Having been an FFL you should know exactly why I'm correct on every single point....its literally in the instructions in every Form 4473 and in the CFR.
RESIDING while "On leave" in Missouri?


While home on leave at Christmas time 1994, I legally purchased a 1911 here in Missouri.
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Again, while "home on leave" were you residing in Missouri?
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1976-24-state-residency-armed-service-members/download


I'm not saying that the regulations have or have not changed since then.
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Unchanged since 1968.
However, Ruling 2010-6 clarified "State of Residence".


Plenty of people think they purchased a firearm "legally" because they filled out the 4473 and the dealer let them leave.....that ain't necessarily so.
A dealer or customer, ignorant of the law or regulations can easily believe they acquired a firearm "legally", but did not.
 
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dogtown tom said:
Apparently it is. And its sad.
The law has been in effect for half a century.
It's discussed weekly on THR.
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As are many things. I wish they would make a pinned thread or post in the legal section. You could be the volunteer!:)
Same with "shipping" a firearm. The threads get so convoluted it's hard for folks to figure out what is correct.
 
12Bravo20 said:
... was still able to legally purchase firearms, to include handguns, here in Missouri while on leave and also legally purchase firearms in what ever state I was stationed in. I did both while I was in the Army and never broke any federal or state laws. The only state that I was stationed in that I did not purchase anything was Massachusetts since their state laws were very strict even in 1991.

While home on leave at Christmas time 1994, I legally purchased a 1911 here in Missouri. My next duty station was Ft Irwin California. While there, I purchased other pistols legally from the local FFL and all I had to show was my Missouri DL and a copy of my orders stationing me in California. Again no federal or state laws were broken....
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A good illustration of why one can not always depend on an FFL understanding federal law on interstate firearm transfers and why personal experience is an inadequate way to understand the law. Dogtown tom is correct.

Federal Law on Interstate Firearm Transfers:

  1. Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  2. In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  3. In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence. In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  4. There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  5. The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  6. Here's what the statutes say:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph


    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

    (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to


    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph


    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​
    ...
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  7. Violation of these federal laws is punishable by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. It also results in a lifetime loss of gun rights.

What is One's State of Residence For the Purposes of Federal Law on Interstate Firearm Transfers?

See 27 CFR 478.11(emphasis added):
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.

A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.​
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One's Military "Home of Record" is Not the Same as One's State of Residence

See this article:
..."Home of record" is almost always the state where you first joined the military. Home of record (HOR) is an accounting term used by the military to determine a number of military benefits, such as travel allowances, transportation expenses, travel time to report to duty, etc. A Soldier's HOR is usually the same as the Soldier's SLR, but that's merely a coincidence, since most people just happen to join the military in the state that is also their SLR. Except in the military, home of record is usually a meaningless term....
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I’m guessing example 2 will apply. Military is relevant for some, but I never served, so it’s an interesting side read.
 
I was going to tell you (the OP) to make it easy on yourself and get a Kansas DL with your Kansas address. By the time I was done reading the posts above from @dogtown tom and @Frank Ettin I don't think I have anything to add.

Those posts should be their own sticky.
 
Frank Ettin said:
A good illustration of why one can not always depend on an FFL understanding federal law on interstate firearm transfers and why personal experience is an inadequate way to understand the law.
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So you are telling me that my personal experience as a purchaser while in the Army AND my experience as a FFL holder is wrong?

As a Type 02 FFL holder I dealt with local, state, and federal law enforcement to include the ATF more so that a Type 01 FFL would. And I never had any compliance issues when the ATF would come in to my shop. And if in doubt, I always consulted my books/manuals from the ATF and/or called them to make sure I was doing things correctly.
 
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Well @Frank Ettin we can agree to disagree. But I was following the federal and state laws when in the Army, as was the FFL's that sold me the firearms. I also followed state and federal laws as a Type 02 FFL.

But I see that yet again I am wrong while certain others are ALWAYS right.
 
12Bravo20 said:
Well @Frank Ettin we can agree to disagree. But I was following the federal and state laws when in the Army, as was the FFL's that sold me the firearms.
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Since you are convinced you lawfully bought those firearms while on leave in Missouri........you should answer my questions from above.
Again, while "home on leave" were you residing in Missouri?
Was it your intention to make MO your home while there on leave?
How do you think being home on leave jibes with https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1976-24-state-residency-armed-service-members/download which WAS IN EFFECT when you were in the military. Note that this ruling says absolutely nothing about acquiring a firearm from your "home of record".

And again, YOU completed the Form 4473 in 1994, not your dealer. YOU presented him with a MO drivers license. YOU certified under penalty of law that your answers were true, correct and complete. That dealer didn't make any judgement about a member of the Armed Forces on active duty because he didn't have that situation. Undoubtedly you filled out that 4473 using the address on your MO drivers license.

You're getting upset that we think you may have violated federal law, but you really haven't presented any information to support that you were indeed a resident of MO when on leave.

As Ruling 2010-6 State of Record wasn't published until 2010, it doesn't mean that ATF didn't hold that opinion in 1994.
That ruling states:
....Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State....
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Being "on leave" for Christmas might be viewed as a transient act.


I also followed state and federal laws as a Type 02 FFL.
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I'm not saying you didn't, but I know three local FFL's that also think they are following federal law and they do stuff like this:
Record AR lowers as a hand gun or long gun depending on how their customer wants.
Record complete AR lowers that have a stock attached as a rifle.
Record Glock frames as handguns.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Now, they also think they are following the law because ATF hasn't corrected them. Having been an FFL you surely know why all three of those are recordkeeping violations and why ATF would likely never notice such a violation. Yet they are still violations.




But I see that yet again I am wrong while certain others are ALWAYS right.
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Then back up your argument.
 
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