Red dot powder

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KY DAN

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I am going to do some testing in the next few weeks of load data recommended by Colonel Jeff Cooper and the only way I know to judge the potential of a load is to test it and test it some more. I plan to load 1000qty lot of 38 specials using his data, for the moment I will not list the data as it shut down my other thread as it is not accepted by load data industry authorities of our current time. I plan to set up a ch auto champion press and load one last time before I remove it from my bench to make room for other hobbies.

I have loaded around 50 pounds of red dot in 12 gauge trap loads when shotgun games were my thing in high school. I know those loads were 20 grains or less being dispensed from a variety of mec progressive presses without issue.(I am away from load data so pardon any mistakes)

I figured someone has tried and they may save me frustration by offering insight.

I need to know the following

- how does the powder meter in a fixed cavity slide type powder measure in 5 grains or less settings?

- wi the powder in these small settings require vibrations ensure accurate metering? I have found an adult toy attached to the powder measure when feeding Unique ensures powder charges with 1/10th of a grain...... I get odd looks by visitor's at my shop but my 45 colt loads are awsome lol.

Thanks THR for your help
 
Some years ago I purchased a pound of Red Dot to try ( old cardboard canister). IIRC it metered reasonably. Then I found Promo. Less money and available in 8 LB kegs only. For many years I have loaded by weight using this for any handgun ammo that calls for Red Dot data. This meters quite well and was cheaper than dirt when I purchased it. I will often use scoops to load handgun ammo though as I find it more consistent than using a measure but that kinda doesnt work with a progressive. If I were in your shoes I would take the time to weigh out each charge as dropped by the press until I was sure it was dropping close enough to the target weight then go for it. Sometimes the vibrations of opperating the press settle the powder enough on its own. Good luck.
 
I regularly use Promo in light target loads for 44 Spl, 38 Spl, and 32 Long. The 38 Spl and the 32 Long are both well under a 5 grain charge. The 44 Spl is right at it, or barely above.

I use both a Lee Auto Drum and a Lee Auto Disc, loading on a turret press.

I have had no problems with the Promo sticking or bridging in either measure.
 
I found volumetric drops of RedDot very similar in consistency to Unique... I don't think you will have a problem.

KY DAN said:
I plan to load 1000qty lot of 38 specials using his data, for the moment I will not list the data as it shut down my other thread as it is not accepted by load data industry authorities of our current time.
Click to expand...

Everyone has to make their own decisions... but I would not load such a quantity up before you have fully tested a sample of that load, which you may have already done.
 
Mec bushing #10 drops 6.3 grs of Red Dot. Its the minimum. Bushings can be modified to lower the powder charge. The old non- bushing type charge bars work well by adding some Brownells AcuraGlas.

Had a large container of Red Dot for 12 ga shotguns. Tried in handgun cartridges, it did not provide acceptable accuracy with cast bullets. There are better powders for Precision Pistol.
 
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I had a friend give me an opened and slightly used 8# cardboard can of Red Dot powder. So far, I have not used any of it. I guess I should, as I’m learning a lot about it, Thanks Guys…
 
You don't mention what exactly you are trying to achieve with these loads and /or what bullets you will be using so it's tough to get too specific. That said, I'll offer the following:
- Suitability- Red Dot is a good versatile ,fast burning powder that I have used with success for standard pressure 38 spl. 9mm and 45 acp "range loads" ( One of my favorite 125gr RNFP 38 load uses Red Dot!)
- Powder Handling- A lee auto disk setup can throw down near 2 gr with Red Dot. Loads that are typically used for 38 are generally above 3 gr and no issue at all. If I need to split the difference between two disks to obtain a specific charge weight, , I just get out a jewelers file and modify an extra disk till it drops exactly what I want. The powder measure on my Lee Classic Turret gets shaken with every throw of the handle/rotation of the turret and that seems to be enough to settle most powders. I have no problem getting accurate dumps with Red Dot. A vibrator might be excessive depending on your set-up but do what works for you.
- Process- Don't pick a load from a chart/book and run with it. You are best to experiment with building 12-18 each of a couple of different weight charges ( varying by .2-.3 gr) near what you want. Only after testing ( to show you have safe and optimized rounds) should you go into production mode. hth
 
Tacoma said:
You don't mention what exactly you are trying to achieve with these loads and /or what bullets you will be using so it's tough to get too specific. That said, I'll offer the following:
- Suitability- Red Dot is a good versatile ,fast burning powder that I have used with success for standard pressure 38 spl. 9mm and 45 acp "range loads" ( One of my favorite 125gr RNFP 38 load uses Red Dot!)
- Powder Handling- A lee auto disk setup can throw down near 2 gr with Red Dot. Loads that are typically used for 38 are generally above 3 gr and no issue at all. If I need to split the difference between two disks to obtain a specific charge weight, , I just get out a jewelers file and modify an extra disk till it drops exactly what I want. The powder measure on my Lee Classic Turret gets shaken with every throw of the handle/rotation of the turret and that seems to be enough to settle most powders. I have no problem getting accurate dumps with Red Dot. A vibrator might be excessive depending on your set-up but do what works for you.
- Process- Don't pick a load from a chart/book and run with it. You are best to experiment with building 12-18 each of a couple of different weight charges ( varying by .2-.3 gr) near what you want. Only after testing ( to show you have safe and optimized rounds) should you go into production mode. hth
Click to expand...

Look up Jeff cooper loads for 38 special, 158 grain lead traveling at around 1000 fps. He used red dot, I have actual load data from books that compliment his data recommendations.

Currently Alliant data max out in the mid 3 grains. I think and there is documentation on other forums that is just anemic and not up to the psi potential as specified by Sammi for a standard 38 special.

In my mind if the psi is in range I do not require load data from a book to support the data.
 
I talked with an Alliant tech back around 2016. They took Red Dot out of the pistol re-loading chart because in their words it was too "fluffy" and doesn't meter very well in progressive machines. Since I told them I have a single stage press and weigh every charge, they gave me their current recommendations back then. At that time, they had just made Red Dot " faster and cleaner burning". Based on their recommendations I lowered my 1 1/8 oz. trap loads 1/2 to 3/4 grain. They gave me a lot of info. on hand gun loads. Tell me what you want to load for caliber and bullet weight and I will pass along any info that I still have. I just went to their web site and their numbers look pretty close to mine. To find Red Dot info at Alliant, Go to Red Dot powder description first, then click on all loading info next to the photo that is in blue.
 
KY DAN said:
I think and there is documentation on other forums that is just anemic and not up to the psi potential as specified by Sammi for a standard 38 special.
Click to expand...

RedDot is a very fast powder, relative to other pistol powders. Fast powders like RedDot can get pressure peaky quite quickly, all else being equal, much like TiteGroup, and some other fast powders like WST. You say 'anemic' like it's a bad thing and something to avoid... but, as I said, everyone has to make their own decisions. Personally, I would take Thomasss up on his offer of reliable data from the Source.
 
Charlie98 said:
RedDot is a very fast powder, relative to other pistol powders. Fast powders like RedDot can get pressure peaky quite quickly, all else being equal, much like TiteGroup, and some other fast powders like WST. You say 'anemic' like it's a bad thing and something to avoid... but, as I said, everyone has to make their own decisions. Personally, I would take Thomasss up on his offer of reliable data from the Source.
Click to expand...

My stance on the anemic ammo is if I can't shoot a cartridge at its full potential then it's time for me to consider the runner up.

Alot of people do not feel this way, that is ok and people should do what they feel is best for their situation. My wife can't shoot anything past 38 special using my ammo and that is just fine because #1 it works and is full power so it doesn't matter #2 she can't tell her friends how she can shoot my 500 magnum and then someone says if she can I can too and ends up scaring them away for life .

I had a mentor who did just that with his daughter and lite 38 specials and he slipped a full bore 357 mag round in the gun and she never fired a round since...... it happens

Full power ammo is always the way in my opinion, when I get to the point I can't handle I will will go down to the next full power caliber and re group.

I will also ask that member above for data he has offered for comparisons sake. We just have to lose our fear of learning.
 
I'm using some vintage red dot from a 3lb metal can in 45acp, 9mm, 10mm, and .380.
My Lee auto drum is good for + or - 0.3 gr in all but the .380. Those loads are 4gr or under and I have to measure them by hand and funnel them in.
I've loaded a ton of 9mm with red dot and noticed no accuracy problems. I'm usually loading for velocity of 1150 to 1250fps, but I'm also not trying to get 2" groups.
I'm usually shooting milk jugs at 50' and if they'll do that they’re good enough for me.
 
Not sure the exact loading Col. Cooper recommends but take it with a grain of salt. Nothing wrong with working up to max load data that is from a published source, powder manufacturer of a good manual. There is a safety factory built in to those loads as there are always variables. Different primers, thicker or thinner brass or bullet design (not just weight). Are all factors.
Try a few and check for signs of pressure. I understand wanting full power, I have a factory duplication load for everything I load. There is a but though! The combination of accuracy and full power is the balance. Every powder and bullet combination has a sweet spot where the stars align and it performs, some better than others. Big boom, flames and recoil while stressing out a good gun are secondary to me. I always shudder when loaders try to make a round something it’s not. That doesn’t mean it cannot perform to its limits, it’s the beyond that Is why .357 Magnum was invented in the first place.
 
Red Dot (and its cousin Promo) are shotgun powders that can be adapted for use in handguns. It is absolutely the right "burn rate" for cartridges that need a "fast" powder like 45ACP, 38Spcl and lighter 9mm target loads. For this reason Red Dot was one of the go-to "kings" of handgun powders back in the 1970's and 80's.

IMHO in 2022 it has largely been supplanted by newer powders with smaller particle sizes. The large flake size of Red Dot doesn't matter in shotgun reloading because no one is working to the tenth of a grain in shotgun shell reloading. Variations of +/- 0.3gr are acceptable in shotgun reloading. However in handgun reloading, accuracy in powder measurement can be seen on the target. Thus powders of a similar burn rate, but with smaller particle size have a distinct advantage in fine measurement. Thus powders like W231, Bullseye, AA No2, VV N320 and Alliant Sport Pistol have completely replaced Red Dot for serious handgun reloaders.

For friendly backyard, holiday get togethers and other times when money isn't changing hands, Red Dot can still do admirable handgun service.
 
KY DAN said:
My stance on the anemic ammo is if I can't shoot a cartridge at its full potential then it's time for me to consider the runner up.
Click to expand...

I used to think like that... but all that heavy recoil finally knocked some sense into me... ;) I realized my paper targets didn't know if I was pushing the limits of the cartridge or not, the hole in the target looked the same... but, as you say, everyone's needs are different. FWIW, I still load most of my .45ACP and 9mm to duplicate factory ammos, that's the way I shoot them.
 
I have used RD somewhat extensively in .38 spl and other centerfires, but in a rather different application than the OP seems to intend. I've found it to excel in cases where case fill and pressures are...less than optimal. I use it for sub-sonic CF rifle loads, sub-sonic .41 mag backyard loads, and low speed .38 cast. The main reason for using this powder rather than a better metering one such as HP-38 is that I generally have a large quantity of it on hand. It is my primary shotgun powder.

It meters "OK", but HP-38 it is not. I've found it to be superbly accurate with weighed charges in .38 spl, but I tend to use it for "close enough" plinking loads for casual practice thrown from a measure. I do use it for precision sub-sonic 158 cast loads in a .357 rifle as it's accuracy and burn charachteristics do what I want. In this case I am universally weighing charges. I'm also working with it as a strong candidate in .38/125 for general use, but my work schedule has not been cooperative with any testing here.
 
I like red dot for reduced rifle loads. Been awhile since i loaded with it. I have a partial 8lb jug of it left. I have a full jug of green dot and about 2 lbs left from another jug. Been using green dot in light rifle. When the world turned upside down. I tried to get another jug of red dot. Not available. But i did score another green dot.
 
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