NY State Bill S9458 and Shooting with Others

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twofewscrews

twofewscrews

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NY State's governor is set to sign into law a slurry of "gun control" laws one of which, Bill S9458 (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/s9458), would "require(s) a license to purchase or take possession of a semiautomatic rifle." I have a couple questions I was hoping you all could answer for me. I own a couple semiautomatic rifles but I do not own any handguns or firearms that require a license or permit thus I don't have a CCW/CCP and am unfamiliar with the laws regulating them.

What is the definition of "possess" being used here? Is possession physical control over the firearm without regard to ownership? i.e. If I hand the gun (semi-auto rifle or handgun) to someone who is not licensed/permitted, have I/they broken the law insofar as I just illegally transferred a weapon and they are illegally possessing said weapon?

If I legally own a handgun in NY state (permit, license, registered it, etc), can I let my friend/immediate family member/GF fire the handgun in my presence or would they need to jump through the same hoops I did (be licensed and permitted) before they could legally shoot my firearm?

If semiautomatic rifles now require a permit to purchase or possess, does this mean I can no longer let my friends/immediate family member/girlfriend shoot my semi-automatic firearms?
 
Basically, possess means having it in your possession, so letting your girlfriend shoot it without having a permit would be unlawful.

But I’m no lawyer so don’t take my word for it. More will be revealed as the law takes effect.
 
Homerboy said:
Basically, possess means having it in your possession, so letting your girlfriend shoot it without having a permit would be unlawful.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure that's true, depending on where the owner is at the time.
If you legally own a silencer (have the tax stamp, etc.) and you are at the range and your buddy wants to shoot your rifle that's fine; as long as you are with him. If, on the other hand, he stops by your house and says 'Hey, let me borrow your silencer"; you give it to him and say "here, go have fun" you might find yourself in Federal prison.
 
Old_Grouch said:
....If you legally own a silencer (have the tax stamp, etc.) and you are at the range and your buddy wants to shoot your rifle that's fine; as long as you are with him. If, on the other hand, he stops by your house and says 'Hey, let me borrow your silencer"; ....
Click to expand...

That might be federal law under the NFA (and we'd need citations), but how is that relevant?

This is a question regarding the law of New York State. Federal law regarding loans of Title II devices has nothing to do with the question. Answering the question properly requires research into applicable New York law.
 
It will come down to how the NY Statute defines "possession."
I did not find anything in my admittedly cursory search.
Without the concrete language of the statute, we can only speculate. And, such speculation is not much better than navel-gazing, sadly.

None of this is much helped by the fact that this is only pending legislation, and until enacted, means very little.
 
So I think I found the answer to my questions, but I'm no lawyer so I could be wrong.

NY state defines possession or possess as "to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over tangible property."
https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article10.php#p10-00

Criminal Possession of a firearm is defined as:
265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a firearm when he or she:
(1) possesses any firearm or; (2) lawfully possesses a firearm prior to
the effective date of the chapter of the laws of two thousand thirteen
which added this section subject to the registration requirements of
subdivision sixteen-a of section 400.00 of this chapter and knowingly
fails to register such firearm pursuant to such subdivision.
(https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.php#p265.01b)

In regard to handguns in NY state, I believe that given how the law is written, if I handed my handgun to a friend/girlfriend/family member that person would be guilty of illegally possessing a firearm. Even if the person I handed the firearm (handgun) to was licensed to carry I believe it would still be considered illegal as the firearm would by on my permit and not theirs, thus it would still constitute illegal possession.

In regard to Bill S9458, I believe the same logic or regulations that apply to handguns would apply to semiautomatic rifles. If I handed a friend/girlfriend/family member my semiautomatic rifle that person would be guilty of illegally possessing a firearm.

Am I wrong?
 
twofewscrews said:
In regard to handguns in NY state, I believe that given how the law is written, if I handed my handgun to a friend/girlfriend/family member that person would be guilty of illegally possessing a firearm. Even if the person I handed the firearm (handgun) to was licensed to carry I believe it would still be considered illegal as the firearm would by on my permit and not theirs, thus it would still constitute illegal possession.

In regard to Bill S9458, I believe the same logic or regulations that apply to handguns would apply to semiautomatic rifles. If I handed a friend/girlfriend/family member my semiautomatic rifle that person would be guilty of illegally possessing a firearm.

Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for S9458 and what it will do, but if you have a pistol license, you can shoot someone else's registered handgun at a range, as long as they are present.

NYS PL 265.20 (a.)(7-a)

Paragraph (h) of subdivision twenty-two of section 265.00 and
sections 265.01, 265.01-a, subdivision one of section 265.01-b, 265.02,
265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15, 265.36,
265.37 and 270.05 shall not apply to:

7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or
revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a
pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at
the time.

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.php#p265.20
 
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jrmiddleton425 said:
I can't speak for S9458 and what it will do, but if you have a pistol license, you can shoot someone else's registered handgun at a range, as long as they are present.

7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or
revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a
pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at
the time.

https://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article265.php#p265.20
Click to expand...

I came away with a different understanding of that section of the penal code. As I understood it, if you have a pistol license, are at an incorporated range (or at a pistol shooting competition), who's purpose is to train you some manner, which is sanctioned by NRA, and are taking a training class (or are under some sort of NRA supervision as in the case of a competition), you are legally able to shoot someone else's handgun or let someone else shoot your handgun. Handing your handgun to someone at a commercial or private range, unless under the afore mentioned circumstances would still be illegal, perhaps not on your part but most assuredly on theirs.

My reasoning for this is that "duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition" refers to a place that is either set up specifically to train people or a place where people are under the supervision of some kind of NGO such as the NRA. This would not cover a private range I set up in my backyard or the private range I belong to, unless there was some kind of event being held by the NRA, and even then, I believe that if the range is not properly accredited (incorporated) even under some kind of NRA supervision it would still be illegal (my private range would not work as it is not incorporated but the private incorporated range I belong to would).

I guess I really need to find out what NY state means by "incorporated organization" in reference to firearms.
 
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twofewscrews said:
I came away with a different understanding of that section of the penal code. As I understood it, if you have a pistol license, are at an incorporated range (or at a pistol shooting competition), who's purpose is to train you some manner, which is sanctioned by NRA, and are taking a training class (or are under some sort of NRA supervision as in the case of a competition), you are legally able to shoot someone else's handgun or let someone else shoot your handgun. Handing your handgun to someone at a commercial or private range, unless under the afore mentioned circumstances would still be illegal, perhaps not on your part but most assuredly on theirs.

My reasoning for this is that "duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition" refers to a place that is either set up specifically to train people or a place where people are under the supervision of some kind of NGO such as the NRA. This would not cover a private range I set up in my backyard or the private range I belong to, unless there was some kind of event being held by the NRA, and even then, I believe that if the range is not properly accredited (incorporated) even under some kind of NRA supervision it would still be illegal (my private range would not work as it is not incorporated but the private incorporated range I belong to would).

I guess I really need to find out what NY state means by "incorporated organization" in reference to firearms.
Click to expand...

This matches what I've been told, and have always understood to be the case: namely that if the pistol isn't listed on YOUR permit, you can't legally shoot it, even at the range. The carve-out for purposes of a training course does sound familiar though.

Based on my initial scanning of the new bill, it appears they're dumping semi-auto rifles into the same permit system currently used for pistols. I would expect that to mean the same rules for shooting other people's guns would apply. What a mess.... caliber is listed on the permit as well, so I'm not sure how multiple uppers will be handled. Anybody know if "multiple" is an acceptable answer? I know Thompson contenders aren't outlawed and lots of NYers have multiple barrels for those?
 
I haven't read up on this law as I don't have any handguns. But my son was in a BSA Venture crew about 10 years ago here in CNY that was at a local pistol club and all the teenage scouts shot handguns. There was also a rifle Venture crew. So at that point it was legal to handle a handgun in that circumstance.
 
CapnMac said:
A subtle point I had missed about NYS law.
It suggests that installing, say, a Ciener .22 conversion in your pistol take it "off permit."
It's the unintended consequences that sow the most confusion.
Click to expand...

@CapnMac you can do things like .22 conversions, extra cylinders, etc. You have to have both calibers listed.
 
When I lived in NY years ago, even before the SAFE act, no FFL would not even let you handle a handgun without having a pistol permit. I would strongly er on the side of caution when dealing with NY firearm laws. You could miss an application deadline and literally be a felon overnight. And I would not rely on case law precedent to protect you.

Under Article 10 of the NYS Penal code, possess (-tion) is defined by

"means to have physical possession or otherwise to exercise dominion or control over tangible property."
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2016/pen/part-1/title-a/article-10/10.00/
 
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