Gunsite 250 Was Awesome

D.B. Cooper · Jun 12, 2022

I just finished the Gunsite 250 course (off site course) yesterday, and it was an awesome experience. The instructors were top tier. There was probably 60 years of experience between them. Their program was well-planned and used our time together efficiently and effectively. Clear, explicit communication both in-class and on-range.

What surprised me: their focus on sights to the near exclusion of all else. After a lifetime of being taught (and teaching) trigger control, trigger control, trigger control, the course proved that, if you keep the front sight on the target and don't move it while pulling the trigger, nothing else matters. Likewise with grip. After a lifetime of being taught to have a vice-grip on the gun and fighting recoil, the Gunsite doctrine is to simply let the gun recoil. You can't win that fight. Focus on returning the sights to the target, instead.

What I learned: Embrace carrying my DA/SA with the safety off. (Also, no one carries DA/SA anymore, as in, they never, ever see DA/SA guns at Gunsite anymore.) Stress management techniques. Competition is not self defense. Not even close. We did several things that would get me a trip to Dairy Queen at a competition, but those things are critical in the EDC world. Lastly, this was essentially a stress test. I found several weaknesses where I need to improve, and how to improve them.

What I wish had known prior to the course: My mag carrier sucks. I had just bought it for the course, but hadn't really tested it yet. I struggled with it all week. More magazines. I went in with 8 15-rd mags. I could have used at least 2 more. You have to, have to, have to clean the gun every. single. day. If you don't, you get stoppages the next day.

The experience was definitely worth the cost of admission. I was fortunate that they came to my area for this off site course, which made it accessible to me. Adding the current cost of airfare, lodging, and meals to the cost of the course changes the cost-benefit analysis significantly.

LocoGringo · Jun 12, 2022

I'm curious what gun you chose to use that is "never, ever seen at Gunsite anymore".

I wish I had more time for classes. There were some classes offered this past Saturday where they tested the shooter on various qualification courses to evaluate skills. It was only $80 but it would have been nice to try and see. I had to work day shift unfortunately.

D.B. Cooper · Jun 12, 2022

LocoGringo said:
I'm curious what gun you chose to use that is "never, ever seen at Gunsite anymore".

Beretta M9/92FS. The only other DA/SA there was a Sig 227. About a quarter of the guns were 1911s, and the rest were some sort of striker fired guns. The course instructor really drove home the point that striker fired is the gun going forward and there is no reason for the rest of us to not move on from SA or DA/SA designs.

He didn't say this in the typical "my gun is better, your gun sucks" internet trolling manner. He made good, evidence-based arguments. I'm still not convinced, but after this past week, I have to at least admit that I don't have a good argument to support my choice of DA/SA over everything else. He also took my gun, shot it in front of everyone, (and did quite well with it) gave a dissertation on design differences between DA/SA and striker to illustrate his point, etc etc. He was very articulate.

LocoGringo · Jun 12, 2022

Let me preface this question by saying I know that competition and self-defense are different scenarios, but a lot of top level competition guns are SA like 2011s. Why would it be negative to have a 1911 IF the gun is proven reliable and the shooter is competent with it versus a striker fired gun?

TheotherMikeG · Jun 12, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
Beretta M9/92FS. The only other DA/SA there was a Sig 227. About a quarter of the guns were 1911s, and the rest were some sort of striker fired guns. The course instructor really drove home the point that striker fired is the gun going forward and there is no reason for the rest of us to not move on from SA or DA/SA designs.

He didn't say this in the typical "my gun is better, your gun sucks" internet trolling manner. He made good, evidence-based arguments. I'm still not convinced, but after this past week, I have to at least admit that I don't have a good argument to support my choice of DA/SA over everything else. He also took my gun, shot it in front of everyone, (and did quite well with it) gave a dissertation on design differences between DA/SA and striker to illustrate his point, etc etc. He was very articulate.

This point is really interesting to me, and I wish I could have been there to hear his argument. It's also tangentially relevant to the conversation going on on this thread.

earlthegoat2 · Jun 12, 2022

These guys give a highly objective and experience driven recommendation of striker fired pistols. Lots and lots of experience. They have countless hours of actual training and shooting time. Because of this, emotion plays no part in their recommendation. Im sure they have a favorite pistol and it may or may not be the one they use to defend their life. The pistol they use to defend their life is a choice of cold logic, reason, and evidence.

What works very well as a competition tool would not necessarily be a great defensive tool. Trigger characteristics, lack of accessories, etc all make a defensive pistol different than a competition pistol. True, you could train with, compete with, and carry different pistols but all from the same type class. I think they would discourage a 1911 for reasons like it having a manual safety and having to be carried cocked and locked. Say what you want about how it’s worked for decades but with cold logic and pragmatism it is something that could potentially be a liability both legally and in the defense of your life.

A defensive pistol is one that needs to be both infinitely carryable and have as many characteristics of user-friendliness and safety as is possible.

Scrapiron45 · Jun 12, 2022

This is a good post. We often see endorsements for various training groups but without knowledge of the op's previous training it can be hard to judge true value. The evolution of weapons and tactics addressed in this class are great information for those of us trying to keep up.

Kleanbore · Jun 12, 2022

Thanks for your input, D. B.

D.B. Cooper · Jun 12, 2022

Scrapiron45 said:
This is a good post. We often see endorsements for various training groups but without knowledge of the op's previous training it can be hard to judge true value. The evolution of weapons and tactics addressed in this class are great information for those of us trying to keep up.

Fair enough. My pistol training consists of having shot the M9 in competition on my squadron's pistol team 20 years ago. Three and two years ago, I did an intermediate and advanced handgun, respectively, at a local training group. Those courses were heavily influenced by at least some of what went on at my Gunsite 250 course. (I suspect that those trainers went to Gunsite themselves, borrowed some of it and made up their own curriculum from it.) Those were each 1-day, 300-rd courses. And I've competed in a USPSA inspired pistol league for about the last four years. Let's just say I went into Gunsite expecting to perform better than I did.

All that said, there were two very inexperienced shooters in that class, and the instructors spent additional time with each of them and modified the course for them to ensure that they had success. Both made significant gains from day one to day five.

Old Dog · Jun 13, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
(Also, no one carries DA/SA anymore, as in, they never, ever see DA/SA guns at Gunsite anymore.)

Things must have changed there since 2006.

D.B. Cooper said:
The course instructor really drove home the point that striker fired is the gun going forward and there is no reason for the rest of us to not move on from SA or DA/SA designs.

Hopefully it didn't come with the smugness I've caught from some other instructors in big name courses over the past few years. Some of us still like DA/SA and 1911s... There is a reason, and for some of us, it's 40 or 50 years with the same platforms.

Frankly, I consider the 92FS/M9 still an eminently worthy duty pistol (even though I've been stuck carrying plastic striker guns since around '07).

Out of curiosity, what holster did you use? I'm presuming all the students are now sporting kydex; back in the day, good leather rigs were commonplace (I was a Kramer guy, myself, but Alessi, Sparks and some others were the big names then).

D.B. Cooper said:
Let's just say I went into Gunsite expecting to perform better than I did.

Inducing the stress factor can be humbling. You are not the only person who's said that (including me).

Thank you for your observations. Very pertinent, and informative.

D.B. Cooper · Jun 13, 2022

Old Dog said:
Hopefully it didn't come with the smugness I've caught from some other instructors in big name courses over the past few years.

Nope. None at all.

Old Dog said:
Some of us still like DA/SA and 1911s... There is a reason, and for some of us, it's 40 or 50 years with the same platforms.

That's certainly a valid reason, however, this was the lead instructor who was probably...at least 60 yrs old or more. Precisely the kind of man you'd expect to see carrying a 1911. Indeed, the other, younger instructor was carrying a 1911.

Old Dog said:
Out of curiosity, what holster did you use? I'm presuming all the students are now sporting kydex; back in the day, good leather rigs were commonplace

Safariland ALS. Yeah I don't think I saw any leather. Other than aforementioned instructor with a 1911.

shafter · Jun 13, 2022

I've noticed that top instructors are moving to red dots on pistols. Part of the reason for that is it's threat focused instead of front sight focused. No matter how much you drill front sight focus, under stress your focus will be on the target and rightfully so.

D.B. Cooper · Jun 13, 2022

shafter said:
I've noticed that top instructors are moving to red dots on pistols. Part of the reason for that is it's threat focused instead of front sight focused. No matter how much you drill front sight focus, under stress your focus will be on the target and rightfully so.

I totally forgot about that (because I'm not a red dot user). Same instructor really pushed red dots for the reason you state and because, as he put it, the red dot just makes everyone a better shooter. I kind of already knew this because I compete and the only people who are winning matches are running red dots. I don't see anyone winning with iron sights. However, it's a steep learning curve, but, apparently worth it.

shafter · Jun 13, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
I totally forgot about that (because I'm not a red dot user). Same instructor really pushed red dots for the reason you state and because, as he put it, the red dot just makes everyone a better shooter. I kind of already knew this because I compete and the only people who are winning matches are running red dots. I don't see anyone winning with iron sights. However, it's a steep learning curve, but, apparently worth it.

I've played around with them a little but haven't made the switch yet even though it's inevitable. Once you get the learning curve there's nothing like it. The guys with the dots are smoking those without. I'm sold on the idea that it's all threat focused. No more front sight focus and letting the target become a blur.

Buzznrose · Jun 13, 2022

DB,

Thanks much for the trip report! Curious which offsite facility you attended.

All three of my GS classes were in AZ. What a cool facility. Last class was 2012 but hope to make another pilgrimage soon.

Interesting about the guns. My last class was close to yours…half Glocks with a few XD and M&P’s, three da/SA guns (M92, P226, and a CZ something), and the rest 1911’s.

Striker fired guns never failed in any of my 3 classes. I know that sounds like bragging…it’s not. Just the facts.

A few 1911’s in each class generally had issues by day 3 but mostly improperly lubed and cleaned. The guy running the M92 had issues but pretty sure it was operator error.

Again, 10 year old data. YMMV

Buzznrose · Jun 13, 2022

shafter said:
I've played around with them a little but haven't made the switch yet even though it's inevitable. Once you get the learning curve there's nothing like it. The guys with the dots are smoking those without. I'm sold on the idea that it's all threat focused. No more front sight focus and letting the target become a blur.

If you think of the red dot window as a big peep sight and look through it for the front sight, you will find your dot quickly.

9mmepiphany · Jul 6, 2022

First, thank you for sharing your experience about an off-site 250 class. I've only attended the 250 at Gunsite...and that was a 1911 Centennial class, so everyone was shooting 1911s. What really surprised me when I attended was their lack of insistence on using the Weaver shooting stance. What is their current position on shooting stances. (The lead instructor, Ken Campbell, told be that I should use whichever stance I was most comfortable with...but my whole point of going to Gunsite was to see how they taught Weaver and how well it worked)

Just curious, who the lead instructor was...Ken is now the CEO of Gunsite

D.B. Cooper said:
What surprised me: their focus on sights to the near exclusion of all else. After a lifetime of being taught (and teaching) trigger control, trigger control, trigger control, the course proved that, if you keep the front sight on the target and don't move it while pulling the trigger, nothing else matters.

It is just a different methodology to teaching the same thing.

You can't hold the sights on target, if you don't know how to manage the trigger

Likewise with grip. After a lifetime of being taught to have a vice-grip on the gun and fighting recoil, the Gunsite doctrine is to simply let the gun recoil. You can't win that fight. Focus on returning the sights to the target, instead.

Interesting how they've changed over time. The Chairman must be rolling in his grave as his version of the Weaver was totally based on fighting recoil and holding the gun down. That was the big difference with the Modern Isosceles that allowed the sights to return onto target. I have taught a vice-like grip in the last 30 years...Bruce Gray broke me of that belief

9mmepiphany · Jul 6, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
What I wish had known prior to the course: My mag carrier sucks. I had just bought it for the course, but hadn't really tested it yet. I struggled with it all week. More magazines. I went in with 8 15-rd mags. I could have used at least 2 more.

Which mag carriers did you go with?

You have to, have to, have to clean the gun every. single. day. If you don't, you get stoppages the next day.

I'm surprised. Another test we ran when I attended was seeing how long our guns would run without cleaning before they stopped. My 250 class was 5 days and I only cleaned mine on the 4th days before the class shoot-off...granted I split the first four days between a STI Trojan and a S&W 1911Sc

D.B. Cooper · Jul 7, 2022

9mmepiphany said:
What is their current position on shooting stances.

They taught Weaver to the exclusion of everything. Isosceles is good for competition, but not for a combat stance. I'm not sure Jerry Micculek would agree.

9mmepiphany said:
Just curious, who the lead instructor was...Ken is now the CEO of Gunsite

Randy Watt. Former Special Forces, former SWAT, former Chief of Police Ogden, UT.

9mmepiphany said:
Which mag carriers did you go with?

Safariland 572 Open top. Bought those and a Safariland ALS holster specifically for this class. Holster was good. Mag pouches were not.

https://safariland.com/collections/...2-open-top-double-magazine-pouch-paddle-11102

9mmepiphany said:
I'm surprised. Another test we ran when I attended was seeing how long our guns would run without cleaning before they stopped. My 250 class was 5 days and I only cleaned mine on the 4th days before the class shoot-off...granted I split the first four days between a STI Trojan and a S&W 1911Sc

Yeah, if you switched guns in and out, I can see where you would have less problems. I cleaned mine after days 1 and 2. Was just too tired after day 3. Skipped cleaning. Before lunch on day 4, I was having failures to go to into battery. (Beretta M9). I took a minute to put some Break Free CLP on the slide rails and it ran fine the rest of the day.

Ammo selection may have played a part. Blazer Brass 115 grn FMJ. But it was spitting the jacket and peppering the target even at 3 yards, so, it may also have just been dirty ammo. I've used that ammo a lot with no problem, but I never fired more than 100 rds at any one session before cleaning, so may have never noticed a problem.

9mmepiphany · Jul 7, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
They taught Weaver to the exclusion of everything. Isosceles is good for competition, but not for a combat stance.

It's too bad that trade mark of the Cooper era still lingers on. There are very few top tier trainers who still cling to the Weaver...certainly no competition trainers do

Safariland 572 Open top

That's a design that dates back to the 60s...it was cutting edge back then

D.B. Cooper said:
Ammo selection may have played a part. Blazer Brass 115 grn FMJ. But it was spitting the jacket and peppering the target even at 3 yards, so, it may also have just been dirty ammo. I've used that ammo a lot with no problem

I've shot a lot of Blazer Brass over the years, although the 124gr is my preferred bullet weight. But it shouldn't have been spitting the jacket...might have been a QC issue

I'm glad the remote classes they now offer allowed you to sample their training. Gunsite was one of the Big 3 training schools and the last one still standing (the others were the Chapman Academy and LFI) If folks are thinking about taking a class, I can highly recommend going to their primary location in AZ. That would allow you to avail yourself of their Shoot House, night shoots and outdoor combat course

D.B. Cooper · Jul 7, 2022

9mmepiphany said:
It's too bad that trade mark of the Cooper era still lingers on. There are very few top tier trainers who still cling to the Weaver...certainly no competition trainers do

There was a whole discussion about the benefits and drawbacks to competition as it applies to self defense. This was definitely not a competition class. IN fact, I made mention in the class that a few things we did would get you a DQ in competition. The instructors were not impressed lol.

They're teaching Weaver (or perhaps it's modified Weaver-dominant foot back, body bladed to the target, non-firing shoulder forward, non-firing foot forward, feet about a half shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent) because it helps you stay on your feet in a fight. Whereas, Jerry Micculek favors the Isosceles because it bring the sights up under the dominant eye and prepares you to move laterally with less movement (loss of time) which is useful in a competition where constant movement in the norm.

9mmepiphany said:
That's a design that dates back to the 60s...it was cutting edge back then

I didn't know that. Now you tell me. lol. I've gone through three types of mag carriers and had problems with them all.

9mmepiphany said:
If folks are thinking about taking a class, I can highly recommend going to their primary location in AZ. That would allow you to avail yourself of their Shoot House, night shoots and outdoor combat course

We did versions of some of that, although probably not to the same level as to what is available in AZ.

We did a shoot house with simunitions using the clubhouse at the range we were using. It was fun, but, to my way of thinking, not very useful, because I'm never going to clear my own home; I'm either going fort up inside my bedroom and wait for the police, or I'm going to stay outside my home and wait for the police.

It doesn't get dark here in the summer, so they taught us how to use the various techniques for shooting with a hand held flashlight, and we did actually shoot live ammo, but in full daylight.

The outdoor combat course was basically a walk through in the woods with steel targets you would shoot as you saw them. Some concealed, some not. It was fun. I enjoyed it. I may set one up on my property in the future. I have no idea what that would look like at their home base in AZ.

Old Dog · Jul 7, 2022

9mmepiphany said:
Gunsite was one of the Big 3 training schools and the last one still standing (

Eh? Thunder Ranch is still in business... and AFAIK, Clint Smith is still teaching.

9mmepiphany · Jul 7, 2022

Old Dog said:
Eh? Thunder Ranch is still in business... and AFAIK, Clint Smith is still teaching.

Thunder Ranch wasn't around when the Big 3 were established. I thought Clint sold the property in OR. Did he open up somewhere else?

A few years ago, the current Big 3 were Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and (Bill) Roger's Shooting School. Defense Training International (John Farnam) is right up there also

Ayoob (LFI) still teaches traveling classes (he's out of FL now). You'll still see him on the West Coast at Firearms Academy of Seattle (FAS)...which also just changed hands

9mmepiphany · Jul 7, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
We did versions of some of that, although probably not to the same level as to what is available in AZ.

Sounds like you didn't miss much.

It was enlightening to see how well different flashlights worked in the dark and the effect on illumination while shooting.

The Shoot House is more fun if you take advanced courses and get to work on team movement. They have catwalks above for observers and you're shooting steel with frangible bullets

I've gone through three types of mag carriers and had problems with them all.

I have a drawer full of carriers, right next to my drawer full of holsters

Jeff White · Jul 7, 2022

D.B. Cooper said:
They taught Weaver to the exclusion of everything. Isosceles is good for competition, but not for a combat stance. I'm not sure Jerry Micculek would agree.

Were they teaching the original weaver? I trained with Pat Rogers several times at the Boone County Sheriffs Office range when Ken Campbell was chief deputy and then sheriff. Ken was an AI in all of those courses and they taught the "boxers stance" (squared off toward the target, strong side foot slightly back, knees slightly bent, leaning forward) for both carbine and pistol, the reasons for that was to face the target with the maximum cover from your body armor and give you the best mobility.

Gunsite 250 Was Awesome

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Moderator

Moderator

Member

Moderator

Member

Member

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Similar threads