Hunting rifles and cartridges: a complex issue? Or is it?

Status
Not open for further replies.
BringHomeTheBacon

BringHomeTheBacon

member
Joined
Feb 17, 2022
Messages
209
Location
Lawton, Ok
There are too many variables in choosing rifles and cartridges for whatever kind of hunting you do.
Factors include but are not limited to:

1. where you live
2. where you hunt: woods, meadows, mountains, desert, snow country, plains, open lowland fields
3. what you hunt
4. availability of rifles
5. availability of calibers and prices of ammo: the Savage Model 99 was probably mostly chambered in .300 Savage (my grandfather owned one in this caliber) but how widely available is this ammunition today and what about its price per shot?
6. rifle prices
7. ammo prices in which calibers especially if you are not a handloader which most American hunters and varminters are not
8. you inherited or received as a gift one or more rifles and you want to hunt with them for sentimental value, so you want to try to make the most out of them by getting the best loads available for whatever caliber the gun happened to be chambered in
9. velocity, some calibers like .25-06 and .22-250 Remington are notorious barrel burners because they zoom at over 3,000 fps: other calibers shoot too fast for woods deer so meat destruction might be an issue as in the case of the .270 Winchester
10. how re-load-able, neck-sizable up-load-able and/or down-load-able is the particular cartridge?
11. range and accuracy
12. legality: may I hunt deer with this gun and it's chambering in my jurisdiction lawfully?
13. recoil level
14. is the barrel lined with chrome?, important for hyper-velocity rounds with a lot of shooting

I think the following cartridges are most versatile if not most practical for most American hunters and pest controllers:

.308 Winchester - anything from little does to black bear to bull moose, sometimes prairie dog towns, .30-06 is overkill on recoil unless you want to shoot brown bear
5.56 NATO - cheap and widely available, varmints, the only trouble is, how many good-quality (forget about Ruger American Ranch bolt-actions) hunting or varmint rifles are actually on the market and chambered for it?
.223 Remington - fairly cheap and widely available, varmints
.17 HMR for small furbearers like fox to minimize pelt damage
.22 Long Rifle for everyday rats and gophers around the farm or ranch

Please name your favorite regular-production rifles and factory loads for the following North American species?

1. woods deer (blacktail, whitetail)
2. meadow/mountain deer (mulies)
3. elk
4. moose
5. sheep, Bighorn (Rocky Mountain and Desert), Dall, and Stone
6. fox
7. coyote
8. chucks
9. prairie dog
10. squirrel, tree and ground
11. black bear
12. cougar
13. bobcat
14. coon
15. gopher and rat
16. lope on the plains
17. buffalo
18. wild pig
19. feral hog
20. mountain goat
21. feral goat
22. brown bear

Here is why Mr. Gun Blue 490 does NOT particularly like the 25-06 Rem. for a number of reasons, it's a specialized niche caliber that burns barrels out:



I bought a new Browning A-Bolt II Boss in .25-06 in 1996 and took a small California buck with it and killed a few ground squirrels as well. It took the small buck in the woods that was accidentally hit in the paunches at 100 yards so I can't attest to it's meat destructive notoriety. This gun was Leupold gold ring Vari-X II 1.75x6x32mm scoped. Offhand from the bench I got a perfect MOA with Federal Premium 117 gr. SPBT. Back then even, each round was a buck a pop! A short time earlier, I bought a Ruger Model 77 in .257 Roberts that shot pie-pan groups and was promptly returned to Walmart where I reluctantly convinced the manager to take the gun back because the fore-end wood was warped and pinching the barrel on the right side. Mr. Gun Blue in the video above claims the Roberts has an accuracy advantage over the .25-06 but comparing the range testing of the A-Bolt vs the Model 77, it would be hard for me to have believed back in 1996. I got my nice Browning A-Bolt II (free-floated barrel by confirmation with a five-dollar bill) a short while afterward. It had no recoil to speak of and I thought the name of the caliber sounded cool and that's why I bought it. I knew from looking at ballistic tables even then and and knew it flew at over 3,000 fps. I only fired the gun 40 times since new and it was stolen unrecovered three years later in a home burglary. I did not know then that such high-velocity calibers burned barrels out. In recent years I've been learning one has to select a gun and a caliber not just based upon a cool-sounding name.

Did I mention that the Ruger in .257 Roberts was a bit on the stout side too, kick-wise?
 
Last edited:
BringHomeTheBacon said:
14. is the barrel lined with chrome?, important for hyper-velocity rounds with a lot of shooting
Click to expand...

Barf. No. Stop. This is NOT a priority for any civilian rifle, certainly not pertinent for hunting rifles.

ETA: even worse when I read far enough to get to the old doofus’s video. That dude is one of the worst ‘gun counter idiots’ to be found in the wild; just terrible for the firearms industry.
 
Last edited:
Everyone is entitled to an opinion....mine?

Shoot what you like, in a firearm you like. As long as its effective in a less than ideal situation it dosent matter what you choose.

For me ill quite happily hunt anything i have any interest in killing with my Christensen.280AI, or my A-bolt .375 Ruger, or a borrowed 30-06 that shoots reasonably straight.......hell im 99% sure id be just as comfortable with a .270, .25-06 or .243 for all but the largest game....and i don't particularly care for those rounds.
 
BringHomeTheBacon said:
9. velocity, some calibers like .25-06 and .22-250 Remington are notorious barrel burners because they zoom at over 3,000 fps: other calibers shoot too fast for woods deer so meat destruction might be an issue as in the case of the .270 Winchester
Click to expand...
I did want to address this.....if your blowing a larger hole than you want, shoot a heavier bullet slower, or a harder bullet.
 
Last edited:
One minor thing with 30-06 vs 308 is, there are more vintage rifles available in 30-06 (Model 70, 700, Sako, etc) especially if you prefer peep sights.

So there will be a place for 30-06 for what I think is a good segment of the American population unless someone other than just limited Sako Bavarian runs (Winchester, Tikka, Bergara, Remarms, Mossberg, Savage, Sauer, Ruger, Weatherby, CZ, Kimber, Nosler, Browning, for starters) start making walnut and blued 308’s with factory iron sights.

Until that not-going-to-happen day I’ll continue shooting 30-06’s which by the way can be loaded to replicate 308’s in every way, so the only disadvantage is cost.
 
Last edited:
Variety is the spice of life. Some guys enjoy hunting deer with a 45-70 lever action. Is it the best chvoice for deer? So called experts will cry overkill but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If the hunter likes it use it. If it is within the confines of the law it’s dealers choice.
 
Here is my stock answer. Any cartridge 26 caliber or larger will take any animal on that list. Bison/Buffalo and Brown bear are pushing the limits and I'd prefer something bigger. But you could do it ethically. Pick what you like. The only real differences are how far you can shoot, how much recoil you are willing to tolerate, how much you want to spend for ammo and how hard it is to locate ammo if you don't reload.

Any of the 22 caliber centerfire cartridges are at their best as varmint rounds, but if bullets are chosen carefully and range limitations are observed will kill deer.

The 24's and 25's are a good varmint/deer combo choice. For anything bigger than deer they can be used on game up to elk. But once again you're pushing things. I'm not a 25-06 fan either. I don't see that it does anything I can't do with a 243 just as well.

I've had a bunch of cartridges over the years but at this point in my life can do everything I want to do with a 223 and 308. That doesn't mean someone else's choices are wrong. It's just that those are mine. For me it isn't a complex issue at all.
 
Agree with JMR40 on the versatility of 308 and 223 and with Redneck2 on the uselessness of debating 30-06 vs 308. My only point of contention on the latter is that while some still make walnut and blued 30-06’s with factory irons (Winchester Alaskan, Remarms BDL), no one does it for 308 anymore, other than limited expensive Sako 85 Bavarian), which is why I’d add 30-06 personally to my essentials list.

Chuck Hawks makes a great argument for 270, 308, 30-06, and 7mm Mag as the only 4 all-around cartridges. That’s accurate in my book, plus the separate world of varmint cartridges and the 22lr as its own category.
 
I mean, overthinking is fun and what we do around here, but man, you are overthinking this.

You can either pick a cartridge you like, and then find a rifle that shoots it well (this is backwards to how most do it) or you can find a gun you like and either live with its chambering, or buy a version in a chambering you think is more optimal for your preferred method of hunting.

If you’re frugal and have been at this awhile you just “run what ya brung.” Learn to work around its limitations.

If you’re just starting out, and don’t own a single gun yet, you may as well start by buying a rifle that suits your fancy and your budget in .308, .30-06, or a levergun in 30-30. These calibers can and have taken all game in North America, and will do nicely for the deer you’re starting out with. Or you can be trendy and buy one in 6.5 creedmoor, it’ll work fine too.
 
About all I hunt on a regular basis is white tails and hogs. My 6.5 CM, 223, and 243 can handle all 3, and a whole lot more. I like Federal nontypical 140 grain in 6.5 and Winchester power point 100 grain in 243. For hogs (when I hunt them "on purpose"), I use 75 grain Hornady BTHP for 223, and have also had excellent results on the 4 deer I have taken with it. Most hogs taken around here are during deer season with whatever gun a hunter happens to have on him at that time. I also have the following: 22 LR, 30-30 (irons only), 30-40 (irons only), 300 BLK, 30-06 (Garand and '03, w/ irons only) and 308 (all heavy barrel long rifles, some suppressed). I have no idea what one should use for goats and sheep (I would think the 6.5 would do it). I know I would need more gun for buffalo and brown bear- so if I win the lottery and decide to hunt either, I guess I will be buying a rifle to do that with. A friend of mine just returned from guiding a brown bear hunt in Alaska (3 hunters, 3 bears). They were all killed at short range and required multiple shots with dangerous game rifles (I can't remember what he said was used, but hey were some huge calibers). He said that all shots were well placed and went into the vital areas of the first 2 bears, and both he and the hunter had to fire. The third bear was killed by a bow hunter at 35 yards while it was standing up with 1 arrow to the chest and that bear rag-dolled- go figure. Between the $ associated with such an adventure, and the fact that I would be scared witless anyway, probably no need for me to concern myself with shooting a brown bear. I'm just not that mad at them.
 
Southmountain said:
One minor thing with 30-06 vs 308 is, there are more vintage rifles available in 30-06 (Model 70, 700, Sako, etc) especially if you prefer peep sights.

So there will be a place for 30-06 for what I think is a good segment of the American population unless someone other than just limited Sako Bavarian runs (Winchester, Tikka, Bergara, Remarms, Mossberg, Savage, Sauer, Ruger, Weatherby, CZ, Kimber, Nosler, Browning, for starters) start making walnut and blued 308’s with factory iron sights.

Until that not-going-to-happen day I’ll continue shooting 30-06’s which by the way can be loaded to replicate 308’s in every way, so the only disadvantage is cost.
Click to expand...

My grandfather also had a 1962-vintage Husqvarna Model 3000 Crown Grade in .308 with factory irons. Front hood. Also drilled/tapped for scope mounting but my 1908-born grandfather did not believe in scopes on hunting guns. Blued with checkered walnut monte carlo stock. Fancy black caps and white spacers. That rifle also was offered in .270 and .30-06 from the early 1950's through the early 1970's. That .308 Husky had a steel butt plate and was a real shoulder killer at the range bench. Definitely a gun for shooting with a PAST pad. Is there factory .30-06 loads that shoot no harsher than .308?
 
BringHomeTheBacon said:
.308 Winchester - anything from little does to black bear to bull moose, sometimes prairie dog towns, .30-06 is overkill on recoil unless you want to shoot brown bear
Click to expand...

If there is $.01 worth of difference in felt recoil between a .30-06 and .308 using same weight bullets I can’t tell you what it is. They are so similar in everything they do as to be almost redundant. The edge going to the 06 with 180 Gr or heavier bullets. And the 06 does not truly start to move ahead until you get into the 200-220 Gr weights. But if both are shooting 150 or 165gr loads and the recoil of the 06 is bothering you vs the .308 you’ve either got a stock fit issue or maybe you need to take up another hobby, something like floral arrangement. Because there simply is not enough difference in recoil between the two to matter or notice.
 
Some of your listed concerns are concerns, but most often you’ll be choosing a rifle based on like 3 of them. Honestly if someone is choosing a rifle and checking every single item on that list they are going to land on .308 or .30-06 which isn’t for everyone.

If you we’re starting from cold turkey to hunting I’d say .308 would be a good place to start. And I’m not even a .308 fan. But the ammo is just available. Lots of budget rifles like the Ruger American which I’ve personally seen make fools out of rifles nearly double the price.

But, I see a surprising amount of quality .30-06 rifles on second hand racks. Lots of them are sporterized surplus rifles, but if you’re picky some of them are quite well done and cheap because its a sporterized rifle. And I am a .30-06 fan. There are more efficient, faster, heavier hitting, lighter carrying rifles in the world. But .30-06 has versatility and a history of moderate to exceptional success.

One of the best pieces of advice I got when I bought my first rifle was “Throw it up to your shoulder and see what feels right.” Having a well fit gun will do more for your personal pleasure and success than splitting hairs on cartridges. (Assuming you don’t decide that the used “Once fired” .416 Weatherby Mag at the end of the second hand rack is your favorite feeling rifle in the store )
 
Last edited:
I have to go with LoonWulf, shoot what you like in a rifle you like.

As to the opinion about barrel burners it made me chuckle. I've owned a .25-06 since 1977. Every weekend in Ohio a group of us would go groundhog hunting on Saturday. In 2005 I had to have a new barrel installed. That's 28 years of shooting! I found it neat that for a couple hundred I could return that rifle to the shooting it did when new. Also own a .22-250 and .243, when those need a new barrel I'll have one installed. I don't see a new barrel as a headache.

I also can't agree that recoil from a .25 cal is stout, but I also don't shoot hundreds of rounds at a session. Some people are more sensitive to recoil than others and sometimes the rifle itself amplifies the recoil.

Sometimes it's neat to own a cool cartridge. An example of this was a Rem 700 Classic in .300 H&H Mag that I purchased. I loved that rifle and cartridge and am still a fan of that cartridge. I sold this rifle after I no longer hunted larger game.
 
Last edited:
H&Hhunter said:
If there is $.01 worth of difference in felt recoil between a .30-06 and .308 using same weight bullets I can’t tell you what it is. They are so similar in everything they do as to be almost redundant. The edge going to the 06 with 180 Gr or heavier bullets. And the 06 does not truly start to move ahead until you get into the 200-220 Gr weights. But if both are shooting 150 or 165gr loads and the recoil of the 06 is bothering you vs the .308 you’ve either got a stock fit issue or maybe you need to take up another hobby, something like floral arrangement. Because there simply is not enough difference in recoil between the two to matter or notice.
Click to expand...

I'm sure good recoil pads will help any .30-something rifle or something like a PAST pad or a shoulder pad that fits in a hunting vest. The thing I really did love about my Browning A-Bolt II .25-06 with a BOSS muzzle device and recoil pad was that it was recoil-less. It gave me ringing artillery ears the night after using it for ground squirrels sans ear protectors. It is best to have your ears on when firing any Browning repeatedly with a BOSS device on the barrel as during a varmint shoot with much repeated firing. One or two BOSS-equipped shots during a successful deer hunt won't hurt your naked ears. In the woods The .25-06 round might harm good meat for a properly-placed shot (not a gut shot like I did due to incorrect aim for a deer quartering toward me at 45 degrees, I mistakenly aimed right behind the shoulder as if the deer was standing broadside) unless the velocity is worked down at a loading bench. Reloading is not my bag. .243 Winchester is probably the best soft-shooting cartridge, effective but not meat-damaging, worthy of deer in the woods. My favorite Savage 99 was offered in this sub-25-caliber "deer" chambering at one time or another.
 
Last edited:
Everybody just over thinks this stuff but I guess it's helped sales of different cartridges and rifles. Pick any decent cartridge and rifle and learn to shoot it and it's plenty good enough for most hunting in north america and as said above you can tune so many different cartridges to your current hunting situation by the ammo or bullets you are using. Sure if you are hunting larger game or bear you would want to pick a larger caliber but when it comes to varmint or deer hunting a dead deer isn't really going to know whether it was a 243 or a 7 mag if the bullet placement is right.

90% of rifles sold and people shooting hunting rifles never run enough rounds through them to burn out a barrel even on barrel burners so that is pretty much a mute point in a hunting rifle. If you do a lot of target shooting yeah but for example I have a 25-06 that was my first rifle, been used a bunch for hunting but that's all it does is hunt and after 50 years it's still a tack driver. And how on earth do you come up with a 30-06 having more recoil than a 308? if you load them to the same velocity and weight bullet the difference in felt recoil would have to be measured with some sort of scale.
 
It is not complicated.

I would think a conversation on the fundamentals of shooting would be more constructive than a cartridge debate based upon quarry.

The largest bear ever was taken with a rimfire, a 500 Smith can end a mouse without taking the head off.

The important part is using what one likes, effectively.

Barrel burners? What, can no one turn a wrench anymore? I thought we were enthusiasts?:D
 
Demi-human said:
It is not complicated.

I would think a conversation on the fundamentals of shooting would be more constructive than a cartridge debate based upon quarry.

The largest bear ever was taken with a rimfire, a 500 Smith can end a mouse without taking the head off.

The important part is using what one likes, effectively.

Barrel burners? What, can no one turn a wrench anymore? I thought we were enthusiasts?:D
Click to expand...

If the rifle is a cheap model, it might just be more practical to replace whole rifle instead of the barrel. If the gun is rare, sentimental and/or expensive, a new barrel might ruin the value or collector value especially if you are a numbers-matching type. I would not shoot a high-value or beloved gun a whole lot. I don't think the Savage 99 was ever offered in a barrel-burning caliber unless it was the .250-3000 Savage. If you are an avid competition shooter, plinker or target shooter, you have money to burn anyway. An AR doing a lot of pest control might do well to be chrome-lined.
 
You are really badly overthinking this. A 25-06 with appropriate bullets is not destructive, a 270 even less so. I've shot deer with both at ranges as short as 15 yards. Pretty much any cartridge can be loaded up and down with heavy or light bullets suitable for the twist rate so there just is no difference there. The "barrel burning" moniker is tremendously exaggerated, my 25-06 has 1500 rounds through it with no real degradation of accuracy. In hunting rifle terms there is also not much if any truth to the thought that one caliber is more accurate than another. 95% of accuracy is in the quality of ammo and the quality of barrel and bedding of the rifle.

In 2022 its pretty hard to argue with a 6.5 creedmoor, 270, 308, or 30-06, from the perspective of someone walking into a store to buy hunting ammo. All will ethically take any animal your likely to actually hunt in the lower 48 all the way from point blank to most peoples ethical hunting range, all are economical and easy to find, and are available in pretty much any bolt action rifle of your choice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Olympus
  • Locked
Large Caliber Consolidation
Replies
8
Views
699
Olympus
Olympus
B
  • Locked
Hunting Rifles
Replies
11
Views
915
Cosmoline
C
S
  • Locked
One family of cartridges
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
Arizona_Mike
A
M
  • Locked
cartridge for non-reloader
2
Replies
39
Views
2K
TCB in TN
T
S
  • Locked
What all-purpose hunting caliber?
Replies
10
Views
826
rangerruck
R
Back
Top