30-30 and HiTek coated

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The trick to accurate cast bullet shooting in rifles is to use the fattest bullet you can get to chamber.

To use bullets that are that “fat” you’ll need a Lyman “M” die that will “bell”/expand the case mouth enough to accept them not unlike an expander die used for straight wall pistol cases.

That said, I find my 30 30’s shoot best with cast bullets sized at .311.

10 shots at 100 yards with a 120 year old Marlin 1893 with a 40% bore (14.5 grains IMR 4227 165 grain .311 diameter bullet 1450 fps).
502-C9-F83-4-BB5-4-F0-F-9-EA7-5-E9795-C385-B7.jpg
Five rounds same load at 100
81853B25-9F81-4454-9651-0C4050020614.jpg

Same load in my Winchester Model 64A
E6EBE8EA-30CD-40C6-A498-50300744B7D3.jpg

Marlin 1893 chambered in 32/40 10 shots at 100 yards same load 170 grain .323 diameter bullet:
A3363D78-5B8C-4456-A73F-AC7CB19105CD.jpg
As far as getting speeds close to 2000 fps are concerned, you’re probably going to need a gas check to get any accuracy with a lead bullet going that fast, especially if you’re bullets are undersized.
 
AJC1 said:
You thinking 4227 or unique fast...
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At least as fast as Unique. I like doing my initial with something fast enough ignition isn't a factor. If I can get it to work with that. I might be able to with something around 4227. I've never had good luck with plain base and rifle powders.
 
Bearded Phil said:
I have I4227 I can try. Will probably take it down to somewhere around 13gr based on @ATCDoktor's load above and see what happens.
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Of the five 30/30’s I own (2 Marlins, 2 Winchesters and a Sears Brand made by Winchester) there is not one of them that will not shoot 14.5 grains of IMR 4227 and a properly sized lead bullet into a decent group at 100 yards.

If your Henry won’t shoot that load well with your bullets, I’d suspect you need to go with a 30 caliber cast bullet that’s closer to .311.

If you’re shooting iron sights be advised that you may not be able to get your point of impact to exactly match your point of aim as the velocity will be right at 1450 fps (with my load).

My Winchesters will regulate fairly well with the rear sight set on the rear sight elevators highest notch.

On my ancient Marlin 1893 I had to switch the front sight to get it to regulate, my late model Marlin 336Y wears a scope so regulation isn’t an issue.

Same load fired this morning out of my Marlin 336.
1870-C1-DA-D97-D-4862-B361-0-C7-A2-B3-A791-A.jpg

Reference velocity, If you go down to 13 grains of I4227 I’d expect your velocity to be around 1300 fps.
 
ATCDoktor said:
If you’re shooting iron sights be advised that you may not be able to get your point of impact to exactly match your point of aim as the velocity will be right at 1450 fps (with my load).
Click to expand...

I'm using peep sights so i can get on target pretty well, right now though I'd just like to see the POI group in a discernible way, I can dial in the adjustments later for sure.

I slugged my bore today with .375 swaged soft lead muzzle loading balls 3 different times, first two came out .306 largest reading (with calipers, which I know are not the most accurate) and the third was .307, this last time I put my cleaning jag up the breach end with a patch and tried to smoosh the lead from the other end to fill the barrel into the grooves as much as possible. Short of taking a cast of the muzzle end I don't think my rifle is overbored, unless anyone has any input on this slugging method? I used a 3/16" brass rod (at the advice of @AJC1, brass use, that is) which was the largest diameter of rod that felt safe without riding the lands too much.

Thanks for everyone's input on this. I have 170gr Winchester factory and 150gr jacketed bullets arriving hopefully before the week is out. My current plan is to take some of the 158gr SNS, load them down with I4227 and I4198 (only maybe 10 ea) and also load some of the 150gr jacketed with starting charges of I4198 and take all 4 different types of rounds to the range and see how it goes. If the MCB sample pack of 165gr arrives with enough time to load some I'll get some of those together as well to take out.
 
Did you measure the largest or smallest part of the slug when it came out?
.306 sounds more like the land diameter.
 
I haven't taken over my 30-30 yet but my dad loaded it for lever action Silhouette for two decades and .310 cast was what he settled on as best. Lee doesn't make that size in their swaging die so I see some polishing and lapping in my future. A .311 is available but your bullets would have to be larger than that to work. If your buying you may be able to get a sample pack for testing.
 
I've only been able to look over one Henry in person in .30-30 and it was tight, according to the gunsmith who showed it to me. He said cast should be avoided - this particular gunsmith always says that and I always ignore him ;) - but if it was loaded with cast, it should be undersized, around .309-.310" max., preferably .308" coated or plated. I didn't get to mic' the plug he ran through it but he knows how to slug a bore. Not sure that helps but my new rule of thumb for levergun .30-30 is: Winchester - .310" and not too hard; Marlin - either .309" and hard or .312" and very soft, carnauba wax lube with either; Henry - .309" and Hi-Tek, copper-plated, or powder-coated. I didn't end up buying the Henry. A lot of money for yet-another-thutty-thutty when I'm supposed to be selling, not buying.

He also showed me a modified single-shot Henry he did for a customer in 10mm Auto w/ a 16-1/2" barrel, threaded, with a funky suppressor and laminated stock. Why? Because the guy's got money and likes 10mm. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Bearded Phil said:
.306/.307 was the groove diameter on the slug
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I apologize if I misunderstand what you are writing.
The groove in the slug is the measurement of the lands in the rifling.
The largest part of the slug would be the grooves in the barrel. This is the important measurement for sizing your bullets.
Most of my barrels are .305-.307 for the lands and . 308-.311 for the grooves.
If your barrel is .306 I don't know what to recommend.
 
Bfh_auto said:
I apologize if I misunderstand what you are writing.
The groove in the slug is the measurement of the lands in the rifling.
The largest part of the slug would be the grooves in the barrel. This is the important measurement for sizing your bullets.
Most of my barrels are .305-.307 for the lands and . 308-.311 for the grooves.
If your barrel is .306 I don't know what to recommend.
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I'm measuring the barrel groove diameter, which on the slug is the highest raised OD on the slug since it's a mirror image of the ID of the bore.

I'm figuring that it's really .308ish and the lead just didn't fill in for the .001-.002". What really matters is that it didn't come out .309-.310".

I've used my same method to slug my Henry 45-70 and those came out .456" so i figure that's right around .458" too, assuming my other conclusion (lead didn't fill all the way for last .002"ish diameter). I shoot .459" sized cast with those and it gets on point of aim just fine.
 
Bearded Phil said:
I'm measuring the barrel groove diameter, which on the slug is the highest raised OD on the slug since it's a mirror image of the ID of the bore.

I'm figuring that it's really .308ish and the lead just didn't fill in for the .001-.002". What really matters is that it didn't come out .309-.310".

I've used my same method to slug my Henry 45-70 and those came out .456" so i figure that's right around .458" too, assuming my other conclusion (lead didn't fill all the way for last .002"ish diameter). I shoot .459" sized cast with those and it gets on point of aim just fine.
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Gotcha. It could be sharp calipers on soft lead. I'd said you're definitely not undersized bullets. Good luck. I'm curious if ATC doktor's load works for you.
 
So got to the range today. My 30-30 is fine, just cant push cast too fast without a gas check it seems.

Here's some groups at 50yd with skinner peeps.

Winchester 170gr Power-Point. First group of 5 is marked with Xs, second group of 5 is marked with Os, 158gr SNS cast coated with I4198 and at 13.0gr are boxed.
30-30, 170gr Winchester and 158gr SNS 13.0gr I4198

30-30, 170gr Winchester and 158gr SNS 13.0gr I4198


SNS 158gr, I4227 13.0gr. Same set up, same distance.
30-30, 158gr SNS 13.0gr I4227

30-30, 158gr SNS 13.0gr I4227


Winchester factory was ~2150 FPS
I4198 was ~1230
I4227 was ~1340

Also tried MCB 165gr with the 13.0gr in both powders but they weren't any better than the above, grouped on paper though which is what I wanted. I have plenty of the SNS so Im going to stay with those and play with the charge around that 13.0gr.
 
I’m not sure (could be the way the paper broke when the bullet hit) but it appears that your bullets are on the ragged edge of being stable and are “tipping” at 50 yards.
B1563598-781-A-407-F-B0-F8-BA6512-FFE961.jpg

If you’re not satisfied with these groups, a lead bullet of larger diameter could help tighten them up.
 
ATCDoktor said:
’m not sure (could be the way the paper broke when the bullet hit) but it appears that your bullets are on the ragged edge of being stable and are “tipping” at 50 yards.
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Could be but I'll probably keep testing with I4198 and this bullet more before I make any more purchases.

To be honest I wasn't that impressed with the MBC 165gr sample I got as far as shape/ weight consistency and they're the only ones I know that have a higher dia 30-30 bullet, all the way up at .311. Plus my sample pack of 100 only had 99 in it.

I would be up for trying a few rounds with a .310/.311 diameter if I can find some elsewhere.

Edit: I just remembered Quality Cast that Geodude referenced earlier, I went to look at them last week but didn't take note of the diameter, they size theirs to .310 and non GC coated are a decent price. They're probably a candidate for an alternate source in the future and they have GC as well. They sell in smaller packs so it's easy to try a few different weights and styles without committing too hard if they don't work out.
 
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Bearded Phil said:
Could be but I'll probably keep testing with I4198 and this bullet more before I make any more purchases.

To be honest I wasn't that impressed with the MBC 165gr sample I got as far as shape/ weight consistency and they're the only ones I know that have a higher dia 30-30 bullet, all the way up at .311. Plus my sample pack of 100 only had 99 in it.

I would be up for trying a few rounds with a .310/.311 diameter if I can find some elsewhere.

Edit: I just remembered Quality Cast that Geodude referenced earlier, I went to look at them last week but didn't take note of the diameter, they size theirs to .310 and non GC coated are a decent price. They're probably a candidate for an alternate source in the future and they have GC as well. They sell in smaller packs so it's easy to try a few different weights and styles without committing too hard if they don't work out.
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Good results. If you get tired of cast in 30-30. Berry's makes a great 30-30 bullet that is almost as cheap as cast. But it's less finicky.
 
A little update on this Henry of mine:

I took out some handloads I made with Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets and I4198.

With velocities between 1650 - 1830 FPS I had some bullets that definitely yawed when they hit the target even at 50yrds.

Does anyone think this sounds like a problem? I'm getting tempted to open up a warranty request with Henry again but I'm not sure.
 
Bearded Phil said:
A little update on this Henry of mine:

I took out some handloads I made with Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets and I4198.

With velocities between 1650 - 1830 FPS I had some bullets that definitely yawed when they hit the target even at 50yrds.

Does anyone think this sounds like a problem? I'm getting tempted to open up a warranty request with Henry again but I'm not sure.
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Velocity is a component in stability... run your numbers through the calculator and see what it tells you.... the longer the bullet, the harder you have to drive them for stability.
 
Bearded Phil said:
A little update on this Henry of mine:

I took out some handloads I made with Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets and I4198.

With velocities between 1650 - 1830 FPS I had some bullets that definitely yawed when they hit the target even at 50yrds.

Does anyone think this sounds like a problem? I'm getting tempted to open up a warranty request with Henry again but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

In my experience Henry Repeating Firearms is not immune from having issues with their barrels.

I bought one of their Long Ranger models and couldn’t get it sighted in at 100 yards (no scope that I owned had enough “right” windage to get get POA and POI to match at 100 yards.

Looked the rifle over and there was an inordinate amount of “contact” with the forearm tip and determined the barrel, was “bent” to the left.

I went online, generated a warranty ticket, sent it back to Henry and they confirmed my suspicions, replaced the barrel and sent it back.

Total turnaround was approximately 2 months (this was 18 months ago during the height of the covid, short personnel, post election craziness).

If you feel the barrel would be replaced send it back because it’s noy beyond the pale that you suspicions are correct.

Dr.
 
I ran the Hornaday interlock that I have at 1.0 inches long .189 g1 170 grains and a twist rate of your gun at 1:12 and still stabilized at 45acp speeds.... test with a jacket bullet to verify and eliminate or confirm a barrel then move on to the much more dynamic world of cast.
 
AJC1 said:
I ran the Hornaday interlock that I have at 1.0 inches long .189 g1 170 grains and a twist rate of your gun at 1:12 and still stabilized at 45acp speeds.... test with a jacket bullet to verify and eliminate or confirm a barrel then move on to the much more dynamic world of cast.
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Is your rifle a Henry like Phil's? Could possibly make a difference. But, at 50 yards, shouldn't be yawing.
 
ATCDoktor said:
In my experience Henry Repeating Firearms is not immune from having issues with their barrels.

I bought one of their Long Ranger models and couldn’t get it sighted in at 100 yards (no scope that I owned had enough “right” windage to get get POA and POI to match at 100 yards.

Looked the rifle over and there was an inordinate amount of “contact” with the forearm tip and determined the barrel, was “bent” to the left.

I went online, generated a warranty ticket, sent it back to Henry and they confirmed my suspicions, replaced the barrel and sent it back.

Total turnaround was approximately 2 months (this was 18 months ago during the height of the covid, short personnel, post election craziness).

If you feel the barrel would be replaced send it back because it’s noy beyond the pale that you suspicions are correct.

Dr.
Click to expand...


I had a similar issue with my 357 Mag and shooting too far to the right. Took a month for shipping both ways and service time but they re-barreled the rifle and it fixed the problem. I did a new service request for the 30-30 just now. I'd rather them have a look and do whatever may need done before I spend more components on breaking in what may be a sour barrel.
 
Well, my warranty request with Henry was approved. I stripped my baby back down to factory sights and packed her up. UPS picked it up today from my office. We'll see what they say in a few weeks when they get to it.
 
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