Licensed Copies / Contract Guns

HK licensed the domestic arms industries in numerous countries (such as Greece, Turkey, Pakistan, etc.) to make the G3 and its offshoots, using HK-supplied tooling and technical supervision. But these contracts generally specified that the products were not to be sold to third countries in competition with HK itself. Nevertheless some of them found their way to the U.S. in violation of these agreements. These are not really "clones" but are totally equivalent to HK production. They are also fairly rare.

A different situation arises when the tooling finds its way to a third country. This is what happened, I believe, when Portuguese G3 tooling was imported into the U.S. and used to make the PTR series of clones. And yes, they are clones because the element of HK technical supervision is missing.

The thing with clones is though you are using the factory machinery to produce an item if the raw materials are of lesser quality then I would not call it an exact copy. A firearm manufactured in say South America on abandoned S&W tooling does not make it a Smith by any stretch of the imagination LOL.
There is a reason the clone is less expensive.

I am in mind of the Argentine 1911’s. Not Ballester Molinas, mind, but the Sistema 1927’s.

These 1911’s were license-built on Colt tooling supplied by Colt as part of the contract. The workers were trained by Colt employees. The pistols were made per drawings that were current in 1927. The pistols retained a few minor cosmetic differences but did not otherwise deviate from the parent product.

This was also the case with the Norwegian 1911, the Miroku Auto 5 and Savage and Remington license-built guns, as well as The Hungarian FEG Hi-Power. They were faithfully produced to agreed-upon specific plans and drawings in compliance with rules established in the licensing agreement, and I’m guessing provisions were put in the licensing agreement that would even allow for inspection by the parent if desired. To deviate from this meant losing the privilege of making and selling the guns.

Knock-offs are unbound by such restraints and can sometimes result in questionable, even dangerous design adjustments and materials of construction. A good example is all of the crappy Spanish S&W knockoffs that resembled S&W guns-the knockoff makers were sued if they could be identified.

Point being, licensed copies are a world away from copies and knockoffs, at least to me.

I have a Springfield Armory SAR 48, a licensed FN FAL made by IMBEL of Brazil, I purchased in the 1980's. It seems to be as good as a FN MFG. FAL.

I also have an Egyptian MAADI AKM that was made on Russian supplied machinery for the Egyptians. In the 1980's, that MAADI imported here by Steyr, was the closest thing you could get to an actual Russian AKM at the time. I remember it being pretty pricey also.

Knockoff is a different animal.

Looking about the safe, I still have a couple of “similars”; an Egyptian Helwan Brigadier (1951 Beretta), an FEG SMK 380 (PPK/s) an Iver Johnson TP-22 (Walther TPH), and a couple of Taurus rimfire revolvers that look externally similar to the S&W revolvers. Of them all, the FEG is the best of the batch.

I had a Uberti clone of the Colt SAA years back as well. I liked the gun, but gave it to a friend as a moving gift many years ago.

Stay safe.

FROGO207 said:

The thing with clones is though you are using the factory machinery to produce an item if the raw materials are of lesser quality then I would not call it an exact copy. A firearm manufactured in say South America on abandoned S&W tooling does not make it a Smith by any stretch of the imagination LOL.
There is a reason the clone is less expensive.

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There is indeed a reason for clones being less expensive. Labor cost in Turkey is TRY 25/h, which is about $1.50, while Germany and the U.S. have similar labor costs closer to $40/h when benefits are included. That has led to Turkey becoming very competitive in manufacturing. Kaessbohrer trailers are no longer made in Goch, Germany but in Turkey and high quality clutches for the Mercedes Actros trucks and brake pads are made in Turkey. Many of the Turkish factory workers have decades of work experience in Germany, working for companies like H&K, Mercedes Benz, VW and many others.

2 examples come to mind:
1) Hungarian R9, "copy" of P35 HiPower. No parts interchange except magazines, 30# S/A trigger. Traded it quick as I could for 2" SW 10-5 which I still have.
2) Portuguese G3 (new), thoughtfully cut up to comply with ATF. I wanted spares for my HK 91. It ain't the original but the parts look identical.
Owned IJ TP 22, junk, Action Arms AT 84 9mm (CZ 75), excellent, and I wouldn't know where to start with RG (Real Garbage) revolvers (although they aren't a copy of any decent design). Joe

Being an old timer, I remember the number of firearms - largely pistols and some revolvers - made in Spain (to be precise, the Basque regions of Spain) from long ago to now. During the World Wars, between and after, that area manufactured many pistols 'copied' at least in external appearance from other arms. The "Ruby" class of pistols (made by different actual makers) are quite memorable.
Oddly, the French nation - Army - bought boatloads of the Ruby in 7.65mm caliber for WW1. They varied in quality and function. Most would fire on cue.
However, very few of the browning look alikes were internally similar. Those were mainly 'knock offs'.
Afghanistan is famous (infamous?) for copies of British rifles and handguns. Dating from copies of the 'Brown Bess' to copies of the Enfield revolver of the 1930s. Most hand made in the barn.

Time for breakfast.

FROGO207 said:

There is a reason the clone is less expensive.

Click to expand...

Even if a clone is identical in all respects to the original, the name engraved on it has a huge impact on the price. A Brazilian-made copy of a S&W is never going to be worth as much as a real S&W, even if they are physically identical. This is why trademarks have value, and are zealously protected by manufacturers. (Patents expire but trademarks don't as long as they remain in continuous use.)

When i think "knock off firearms", immediately think of Khyber Pass.

The terms get abused a bit.
A milling machine is a milling machine. The jig to make a specific cut on a specific bit of stock, is unique. The cutting tool profile, is also unique, if also, possibly, a common cutting tool.

A significant portion of the "data package" is in the tolerances of all those "bits."

There can also be purpose-built "single point" machines as part of the process, as well. Why ties up a very expensive machine lathe if you can make a single-purpose rifling machine, that exactly fits precisely the barrels being made.

That's in the substance of "license built." You pay to get the exact machines and tools to make the specific product.

Now if you replace--ore re-engineer--the "process" the previous machine tools, and tooling, will be surplus. Taurus made a great deal on S&W's surplus machines in the 80s. The labor rate in Brazil allowed for being able to "do" all the extra QC steps that worn out machines and machine tools would require. That labor rate also allowed for taking items that were "less finished" and doing the extra work to get them "to spec."

Of course, that work also means that Taurus parts generally on fit other Taurus products. With License-built, a part made by Company B will fit as well as one made by Company C, or D, or so on.

Sometimes even the licensed copies are poor imitations.

What immediately comes to mind is the S&W produced Walther PPK/s.

my taurus j-frame 38sp revolvers match their s&w parents in useability.

I taught my sisters to shoot using Ruby/S&W Model 10 knock-offs.
Both had good triggers and functioned fine.
One sister kept her Ruby, the other traded hers to me for a Security Six.
I sold that one to a co-worker for my cost.
Pretty good guns for fifty bucks each.