"I have X number of flawless rounds through Y gun!" But why do we care?

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I do agree with the premise that malfunction coincides with number of rounds fired. My rifles and shotguns that are strictly used for hunting have flawless records. Total rounds per firearm are < 100 each.

On the target range I fire many thousands of rounds through various guns, 90% reloads. All semiautos have experienced ftf except for two newest which have only had 2-3k rounds through them. With .22lr I’ve experienced duds and very occasionally feeding issues. Semi auto centerfire malfunctions are so rare that it surprises me when it occurs and any failure has been due to feeding jams. Why do I care? Because the guns I shoot the most are also defensive weapons and if they were prone to malfunction I would get rid of them. I’ve never had parts break but don’t rule out the probability.

I can say (not for bragging rights), that two revolvers, a model 28 and 586 both with 10-15k rounds have never malfunctioned
 
I think it is useful information in the same way that knowing Houston has an average of 300 murders a year whereas Pyote (look it up) hasn't had a murder in 25 years* gives someone leaving Grand Junction for Texas an idea of which is the safer place to relocate.

Now there isn't much actually in Pyote and it has a population of about 114 people, give or take, and is a giant sand trap to boot, so it is a good place to be FROM and not live, as they used to say in West Texas. But it is anecdotal information and given enough separate case of anecdotal information you can establish a trend, just like mentioned above about Kimber.

"To generalize is to be an idiot" according to William Blake, and so I may be in this example. Meanwhile I'll keep filing away all those kernals of info for when I need to make an informed decision.


* I have no idea if Pyote has or hasn't had any murders for the last 25 years and am too lazy to look up such information. Never let facts get in the way of a good story or so I've been told.
 
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"I have X number of flawless rounds through Y gun!" But why do we care?

It is self made public validation that the claimant has made the right purchase, done the right cleaning method, selected the right parts, loaded the right ammo, hence has the right gun, etc. This success is obviously the product of the claimant's mental prowess and knowledge on the subject and obviously an indicator of why the claimant should be listened to regarding anything related to the gun, parts, cleaning methods, ammo choices, etc.

I think a lot of these "my gun has never had a failure" posts are merely chest thumping with fanboy overtones.

They are. JohnKSa and I ran two 1000 round pistol matches back in 2008 and 2009 for people who had self proclaimed perfect guns. This was an offshoot of the Glock vs. 1911 1000 round matches of 2006 and 2007 (I attended the latter, and then others later). It had come to our attention and a lot of proclamations were really bogus. Comments often "My gun has never malfunctioned, but...
I have"
my ammo has"
the magazine has"
the recoil spring has"
etc.

But it is never the gun's fault, LOL.

During the matches, we would have a shooter and then a judge watching the shooter during each stage and malfunctions were recorded as to type and at what number in the sequence that the occurred. What was really interesting was the number of times shooters got to the end of the match and and TOTALLY FORGOTTEN ever having had a problem, but any problems were documented. Few guns made it to the end of the match without a problem. I think a lot of people forget about problems they have had. I had a guy tell me that moving a thermal scope between rifles never caused him to lose zero between the rifles, yet I was present when he had that happen and called him out on it and yeah, he supposed that could have been a problem 28 out of 30 misses (one raccoon) because of a lost zero might be a problem, LOL. However, that incident had totally slipped his mind much in the same way and failures during the match slipped the participants' minds.

Overall in the matches between Glocks and 1911s, Glocks tended to go the distance of 1000 rounds without maintenance more often than 1911s, probably at a rate of 3:1 or 4:1. However, some of the firearms suffering malfunctions earliest were also Glocks. That is an interesting dichotomy.
 
I just posted a recent range trip where I mentioned running xxx amount of ‘flawless rounds’ through the PMR30. I did this only as a counterpoint to some apparently (on various internet sites) ongoing concerns about the guns cycling reliability.

To me the gun has already proven reliable and accurate enough to start the search for a red dot and potentially use it as a primary CCW.
 
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Does running flawless mean something to you and does a gun's broken flawless streak also mean something to you?
Yes, and yes.

I actually have a handful of pistols with round-counts in the thousands and nary a bobble. Are the ones I think have been perfect truly so? I suspect that most of us look back at shooting history with the proverbial rose-colored glasses. I've gotten to the point where, unless a problem is repeated several times in one range session and crops up again in the next range session, I don't worry about it, if I can figure out a cause and rectify it...

What I have noticed, especially during courses or range sessions with experienced shooters, is that some folks experience a minor malfunction, automatically clear it (tap-rack-bang, whatever), move on, and afterwards don't remember that their pistol failed to eject/return to battery, as they were able to complete the string of fire and/or quality easily without repeated malfunctions.

Therefore, i concluded, as some here have also, that the claims of perfection often are bogus, as it's all relative, and anyway, folks will always make excuses for the pistols they are attached to.

Couple years ago, I encountered several stubborn FTRBs and FTEs with my personal duty pistol during qualification. At the time, this pistol's round count was over 2500, at least. This threw me off a bit and I was not happy. As I got ready to retire, I sold the pistol as I just couldn't feel the confidence in it. Even though we'd had a bad lot of ammo (American Eagle) that was a real nuisance.

I'm probably just a bit superstitious. Went through one course with a Glock (23) and had multiple malfunctions, another with a 1911 and got through a 500-round class with maybe two, easily cleared (FTF) issues. Didn't give up on Glocks, though, or go on the internet and bash them, and I accept that the 1911 can be a finicky beast, so didn't worry about that either. Sold the Glock, though.
 
I recall one somewhat popular firearms trainer, that I won't call out by name, required his students to drop their pistols on the ground and step on them in an attempt to induce failures.

Oh boy I better bring my 1911 to his class then, it being all metal. I'm really sure he'd like that . . . .

On topic though, I think the real thing we need to focus on is our ability to prevent failures, as any complicated mechanical device will fail at some point. I've had bolt actions go weird on me, revolvers too. It can happen with any of them. A 1911 that is still fine as it is, but the barrel bushing is really really stiff for whatever reason. A Glock 20 that'd drop it's mags after firing, and once the slide fell off the frame for no reason whatsoever.
What matters is our ability to properly oil/grease any firearm, to diagnose problems and to fix them. We can find a gun that'll run several hundred rounds completely dry, and that's great but eventually it'll fail too (especially after the fact you just ran dry metal-on-metal for several hundred cycles on it..)

To me a flawless gun is something that's never had a mechanical issue inherent to it's design. Failures related to ammo or user error are forgivable.
 
The Kahr was flawless till it wasn't. The XD on the average was significantly more reliable despite the failures because the recover from failures were quickly successful.

Good comparison of how different the history and nature of failure can be between the two pistols; neither of which would inspire confidence in a self-defense situation. Your experience is a reminder that customer service counts when something needs fixed.
 
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I am interested in guns that are typically reliable, accurate, etc. because it allows me to make a more informed decision on a purchase. Forums like this are a great source for this data. For me personally, I am generally happy with what I have, but I have had many guns along the way that I got rid of because they did not meet my expectations in one way or another. If forums like this existed in the late 80's when I started my "gun journey", I probably would not have even thought about getting half of the guns I have previously owned.
 
Idahou: you explained this better than I could have. English isn’t an easy language.

And in Czechoslovakian I can only say “thank you” .

But my Very High Quality :D CZ PCR (over 800 rds.) and :D Czechpoint VZ-58 (2,500 rds: used boxes are kept)

are quite “fluent” in Czech “expressions of freedom”.:cool:
 
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One of the things I try to regularly practice is what to do with a failure.

They do happen but the key is to have plans A B C & D for when they happen.

A New York reload is one option I try to practice regularly.
This is something that seems to be lost on a lot of people. Just watch people at the range when something does go wrong and watch what they are doing. $100 says they are standing there staring at the gun with that stupid, deer in the headlights look, instead of immediately remedying the problem and moving on. Your malfunction drills should be as ingrained as anything else you do with the gun, and done immediately without thought.


If someone tells you they have a gun that is "flawless" and has never had a stoppage or problem, they either havent shot it enough to know if it is (hint here, NOTHING is ;)), or they are full of it, or both. Sooner or later, everything fails, and for any number of reasons. Get over it. The whole point here, is to be fluent in failures and how to deal with them when they happen. And you know, no matter how flawless you say that gun is, they WILL happen, at the worst possible moment. ;)

Theres no doubt, some are better than others, and even the better thought of brand names arent immune, as much as that probably irks some who overpaid and tried to buy perfection.

Again, if youve yet to have a failure, youre just not shooting enough. And the important thing here isnt the failure itself, but what you do when it happens thats the important stuff.

This isnt about "flawless" as much as it is about learning to deal with reality and things that arent.

One advantage to guns that dont run well is, they make great training aids for the same type of guns you have that do. I had a Kimber 1911 that wouldnt make through a mag without a stoppage, and Springfields that had a number of issues, and they made for great malfunction trainers while I had them for my Colts that did run. The Colts werent perfect either, but I learned more from the others when it came to dealing with things.

Another great training aide is worn out, reloaded brass. You get all sorts of random and weird malfunctions with it, so you dont have to set them up.

Of course, thats really going to ruin your "flawless" failure run and those bragging rights. :p
 
Does running flawless mean something to you


It means they have not shot it enough!!!! I repeatably state the guns I own that have not malfunctioned simply have not been shot enough.
1 in 10 is far different than 1 in 1000.
 
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Outside of an actual manufacturing issue involving the particular gun, there's a usual range of influences and conditions that may lend themselves to a firearm experiencing a stoppage or other malfunction. These are some of the commonly described influences that are beyond the control of the gun manufacturer ...

Shooter-induced manipulation issues
Ammunition-induced issues (QC/production/tolerances, etc)
Shooter-induced Maintenance issues (lack of cleaning, improper cleaning, etc)
Environmental issues (harsh/hostile conditions)

While shooter-induced issues are usually described as the most significant influence that may be observed, ammo issues may occur, especially when least expected.

I had a primer fail to ignite a round the other day while I was doing some shooting at the range. It was a round from a premium line of defensive ammo made by one of the major American makers. Good primer hit. Only that one round. It was a recycled carry ammo round I'd put into my range ammo, which was all I was shooting in that gun that day. (I usually recycle pistol carry ammo the first time I extract/eject it from the chamber .... because I can.)

Was it inert from the first time I'd removed it from the fresh box and loaded/chambered it? Defective from the get-go? Did it get exposed to some lube when being carried? Dunno. The last time I came across a bad primer for that brand/line of ammo (and in another caliber) was more than 10 years ago, and many pallets of cases ago ... so that's not bad odds. ;)

You shoot long enough, for enough years, you increase the chances of inducing an issue (shooter), or stumbling across a bad round, or pushing a gun too far before cleaning ... or simply experiencing a puzzling stoppage for which you can't figure out the cause.

Kind of like driving a motor veh long enough before experiencing a flat tire. The cause of the flat might vary, but if it happens, it happens.
 
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I think a lot of these "my gun has never had a failure" posts are merely chest thumping with fanboy overtones.
Well, you can believe what "we" say, or you don't have to.
And I'm proud to be a "fanboy." When something gives me the most bang (no pun intended) for my buck, I'll share that information for the benefit of others. And I reward that brand (Ford, Beechcraft, Suzuki Marine, Ruger, S&W, Speer, etc. You get it) with more of my business.

if you train with a "flawless" firearm, I hope you are slipping in dummy rounds, etc. in an attempt to mimic failure and are practicing how to recover from a failure and getting the gun back in operation quickly.
Excellent point!
 
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Another great training aide is worn out, reloaded brass. You get all sorts of random and weird malfunctions with it, so you dont have to set them up.

Of course, thats really going to ruin your "flawless" failure run and those bragging rights.

I've seen my share of failures with my reloads due to not really keeping a good track of how many times I have reloaded each case. Usually a sure sign of a worn out case is when I start getting extraction issues.

When I get into the 1,000s or 10,000s of rounds fired with minimal issues, I am satisfied that the guns reliable. Case in point is my Glock G44 especially considering the overall inconsistency of 22lr ammo. I've been trying to wear my G44 out and it is going strong.

When I do have malfunctions, I look to see if it was me, the gun, magazines, or the ammo. And yes I do have malfunctions, some guns have more than others. And even with the G44 being as reliable as it is, if I limp wrist it or don't load the magazine correctly, or use craptastic ammo it too will mess up.
 
I can only speak from my own experience, of the guns that I have used while they were (are) in my possession. I have three that have performed flawlessly for me. Two were used when I got them. I know not how they behaved for their former owners. Both guns have exceeded the 2,000 round count threshold. One is my Astra 400. 1000 of those rounds were CCI Blazer aluminum cased Largo ammo . The rest were a combination of .38 Supers ( Bullet pulled and reduced charge.) Handloaded Super cases loaded with a variety of bullets, from round nosed to semi-wadcutters to full blown 148 gr. wadcutters, seated about 1/10" protruding. That gun ate everything. It never had a stoppage of ANY kind.

My second uber reliable gun is my shooter grade C-96. It has fired nothing but factory loaded ammo, the vast majority being Tokarev ammo, years ago when it was really cheap. It has never missed a beat. I replaced the hammer and bolt springs when I got it, and replaced them again after a couple of cases of ammo. Still shoot it today. I reckon I've got near 2,500 rounds through it. The bore is a bit frosty but it still shoots accurately.

The third gun is my AR. It's a Bushy, not the best, nor the worst, but at least the gas key and castle nut were properly staked. It has, by actual count, 2470 rounds on its logbook. 500 of those were a mini torture test where I kept the gun well lubed but not cleaned. It never missed a beat. Sure was dirty at the end, though.

I have two golden rules which constitute MY recipe for trouble free operation: Keep it well lubed and keep the springs fresh.
 
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Well, it is meaningful, and it isn't.

It is, because I think if a gun is a lemon, i.e. it's just not gonna work right for reasons not related to ammo, user error, or routine parts wear, then usually that's obvious in the first several hundred rounds (and mostly in the first couple dozen). So if a lot of people have the experience that their gun has not malfunctioned in hundreds or thousands of rounds, I think you can be reasonably confident that the model as a whole doesn't have problems.

However, at the same time, you don't buy the model as a whole, you buy just one gun of that model. And user experience may vary - just because the design as a whole doesn't seem to be a lemon and that most users are satisfied, doesn't mean you won't get the one in a thousand or one in a million guns that is a straight turd right out of the box.

However, once you have gone several hundred or thousand rounds through a gun, I'd have some warm feelings toward it being reliable in the future as long as I did routine maintenance and part replacement as recommended.
 
This is partly why I don't keep track of the number of rounds I shoot. Some are easy to remember such as my safe queen commemorative 1911 has fired exactly 42 rounds. Is there something special about that number? No. It is how much 45 I had that day at the range. My oldest carry gun has over 125,000 rounds through it. And that is an estimate based off how many matches I shot with it in college.
 
I don't know. I've seen different guns do different things. Out of the box with factory mags, I guess saying some number of rounds does indicate a degree of manufactured well enough to run good, but - until recently I always like the price of used guns and don't mind a bit of tinkering with them to get the up to suff. I have a Ruger Standard MK2, that was a jammomatic when I got it. I isolated out 2 suspect magazines that were suspect, and they were aftermarket mags, I just gave up on them and got some more factory magazines, and unless I run Remington Thunderbolts through it, it doesn't jam at all. I use it now several times a year and consider it completely reliable.

If you were someone who was just getting something to have something, and probably going to put it in a drawer for years, a brand a model that had a reputation of just working well out of the box would be appealing. I guess it is a bit appealing anyways, but - I'm find with getting to know them and making them work. My Model 10 had an issue, and it was just me, I just have dinged it, and the cartridges would scrape the ding on the base of the brass by the primer, and it would bind up. Took me a while to figure it out, but a quick stone job and some cold blue, and totally good to go. I don't lose any faith in the firearm, because it needed maintenance. and really pretty basic/easy maintenance at that.
 
I agree with the OP. I think a lot of us gun enthusiasts make broad statements based on anecdotal evidence and/or small sample sizes and/or build off group-think. I like to think of these observations as data points rather than deciding factors.

I too do not put a lot of thought into a gun having an infrequent hiccup. I’ve found that usually issues are related to ammo or magazines. Those that aren’t are often fixed by the original manufacturer without hassle.
 
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What do you guys think? Does running flawless mean something to you and does a gun's broken flawless streak also mean something to you?

Running flawless means I have a firearm I can depend on. On this and many other gun forums I'm on, I see folks telling others all the time to run X amount of ammo thru a gun to make sure it is dependable BEFORE you put it in your carry rotation. This is just common sense. Whether it's the gun, the ammo or your grip that causes the failure, you need to be aware of the probability of a failure. Guns that perform flawlessly for thousands of rounds have proven themselves dependable. That means something. It also gives you confidence in that firearm, so you tend to carry it more. If you have a gun that is one of those infamous "Jam-O-Matics" how confident are you going to be with it in your carry rotation? Wearing a gun out or the rare broken part has nutting to do with everyday reliability. The gun that breaks a specific part on a regular basis is not reliable. Guns that do not function with certain ammo, are not necessarily unreliable if they perform flawlessly with different ammo. Not a gun problem, but an ammo one. If a gun's impeccable flawless steak is broken by a one time incident, that can not be made to repeat, does little to dissolve the confidence I have in that gun. Now if the failures continue, than I have concerns.

I have guns that are over 100 years old that still perform flawlessly. My dad's ol' model 97, my grandpa's model 94 .32 Special and my M1917 Eddystone that I bought outta a barrel in the sporting goods section of Montgomery Ward back in the 60s for $25. While they are old, and according to many here, ready to break at any time, I still have nuttin' but the utmost in confidence that when I pull their trigger....they will go boom.

I think a lot of the concerns over "X" amount of ammo run thru it flawlessly, came about because of the FTF of semi-auto pistols. Old 1911s would not feed with anything but ball ammo. Something you rarely ever heard about back when revolvers were the norm. Same with rifles and shotguns. The failures seem to haunt semi-autos a lot more than their pump counterparts and a 'ell of a lot more than their bolt action brethren. A failure with the old Topper SS break actions with the outside hammer was almost unheard of unless it was bad ammo.

Is it chest pounding, ego boosting or just an attempt to educate others about the reliability of a specific firearm? Comes down to whether or not you can honestly believe what you are being told.
 
"

I have"
my ammo has"
the magazine has"
the recoil spring has"
etc.

But it is never the gun's fault, LOL.

Sometimes it takes time to figure out just what is causing the whole system to malfunction, and that's when the finger gets pointed either ammunition, magazines, or the gun. And if it is the gun, it takes time to figure out what is going wrong, and recoil springs do cause malfunctions, (particularly in ancient S&W M46's!)

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1911 magazines feed well in one pistol, and not the other!

When I was shooting IPSC in the early 1980's, custom 1911's with compensators, and gimmicks were all the rage. And some competitor would bring his latest, high dollar tricked out 1911 and immediately have jams and malfunctions. However, factory guns tended to perk along nicely. That made an impression on me, such gimmicks and gizmo's are nice, but if they cause malfunctions, I did not want them.

This rifle is on its third barrel, and I have shot the snot out of other M1a Super Matches and National Match M1a's.

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I can say I never had a malfunction that was not caused by me. The one I do recall was due to the Johnson paste wax I slathered on cases so my expensive LC brass would not get case head separations. I had a couple of bolt rides in cold weather, the bolt closed on an empty chamber in rapid fire. Fixed that by polishing the rounds, the glumps of paste wax I left on cases were actually slowing the rise of the cartridge stack in the magazine, in cold weather. After polishing my rapid fire rounds, I never had a malfunction. I also learned to small base size, used case gauges, reamed primer pockets to depth and seated all primers by hand. And I used powders and bullets that everyone else used: 168 Match and IMR 4895. I also never, ever, hot loaded the mechanism, and so, high 90's to snow covered firing points, the rifle always functioned.

The most common malfunction I observed with Garands and M1a's was not really the fault of the rifle. Shooters wanted light, clean trigger pulls. Sears do wear, and if the sears were stoned too much, the hammer would not be caught and the rifle would double during rapid fire. Boom, boom! We always gave the shooter an alibi at club matches, because the shooter had to be convinced his rifle was bad, or he would get mad and not want to leave the match. Inevitably, the rifle would malfunction on the ailib relay, and an unhappy shooter left for the day.

I did see one malfunction wiht an M1a that was weird. I was scoring a shooter during 300 yard rapid fire prone at Camp Perry. He was firing an M1a and was using Government white box LC match ammunition. If you are a scorer you count the rounds your shooter is firing, to make sure the number is ten. Not nine, or 11, for example. On one rapid fire round the operating rod moved, but the case did not eject, and the round hit the bull. The shooter called for an alibi, and when the operating rod was pulled back, the empty case ejected. I don't know how that could happen. I figure a low velocity round would be a low, low shot. If it was, it was not lower than the black. His rifle functioned perfectly the rest of the day.

This bolt came off a virtually new M1a. It is not a GI bolt, this is after Springfield Armory ran out of GI bolts. This sort of thing is probably due to wrong steels or a bad heat treatment.The shooter was using GI National Match ammunition, so probably not due to reloads.

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AR's were much more temperamental. All the 223 has is velocity and the round has to be pushed right at the edge, because it is already too wind sensitive. If a primer blows, and drops into the mechanism, I have had trigger mechanism jams that could not be cleared until the trigger pins were pushed out, and the primer fished out of the bottom of the mechanism. I have seen AMU shooters who removed the lower from the upper, beating the lower against the ground, in an attempt to dislodge the blown primer from the mechanism. That will ruin a 600 yard score, as the wind changes before the shooter can reassemble his rifle! I had malfunctions with old GI magazines, those aluminum GI magazines were a poor design from the beginning and the source of the AR15 greatest unreliability. The Army Infantry School complained about magazines being expensive and heavy, and Stoner gave them what they wanted: cheap and disposable. Early literature called the magazines disposable. Guess they were not supposed to be used twice, so, my bad. While I ran the firing line at matches, I saw a number of magazine/ammunition malfunctions, for example, the round would go up under the gas port tube. Could be a combination of too hot a round, or spread magazine feed lips. That's one reason every AR15 competitor learned to carry a needle nosed mulitool. The ejection port is too small to pluck a jam out with your fingers.

Given a well debugged weapon, careful ammunition use, and replacing worn parts (particularly springs), a firearm can be very reliable. One must expect though, that things will break. I have broken Garand firing pins, extractors, while shooting because the were old before I ever received them. Push feed extractors will break in time, and you cannot blame the gun for that, there is a limit to the thickness of an extractor. And then, triggers and sears will wear out. So what, replace them.
 
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Sometimes it takes time to figure out just what is causing the whole system to malfunction, and that's when the finger gets pointed either ammunition, magazines, or the gun. And if it is the gun, it takes time to figure out what is going wrong, and recoil springs do cause malfunctions, (particularly in ancient S&W M46's!)

Yes, you can determine a cause, but that does not negate the fact that the gun malfunctioned. Your recoil spring craps out and your gun fails to cycle, that is a malfunction of the gun, but caused by a malfunction of the recoil spring.

Some people really don't want to admit that their gun has done something that would be considered less than 100% reliable, which was my point. The recoil spring is part of the operating system of the gun as are the mags, ammo, etc.
 
Yes, you can determine a cause, but that does not negate the fact that the gun malfunctioned. Your recoil spring craps out and your gun fails to cycle, that is a malfunction of the gun, but caused by a malfunction of the recoil spring.

Some people really don't want to admit that their gun has done something that would be considered less than 100% reliable, which was my point. The recoil spring is part of the operating system of the gun as are the mags, ammo, etc.

I won't deny, that I am denial most of the time.

However, if you ever get involved in acceptance testing or reliability scoring, the exact cause of the failure is very important. And potentially hazardous to the Quality Assurance representatives health! And when failure definition criteria is developed, the equipment developer wants to define all failure events as "acts of God!"

You are defining failure criteria in your own way. Lets just say, when my spring fails, it is a failure of my gun, the failure of industry, the white establishment, and of course, ultimately, Vladimir Putin. And now we are all good little Progressive Democrats. :rofl:
 
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