You must have slept at a Holiday Inn last night.i ain't a lawyer and never played one.
It would appear that so called "red flag" gun laws are civil procedures as opposed to criminal cases. In criminal law only the government can bring charges. In civil law citizens bring charges.
The burden of proof in criminal cases is "beyond a reasonable doubt". For civil cases the standard is "preponderance of the evidence".
Civil Law vs. Criminal Law: Breaking Down the Differences | Rasmussen University
How about the fact that no evidence of any crime, anywhere, by anyone, is needed to go forward on a RFL seizure? (to the extent of my knowledge, based on a review of some, but not all, RF laws)
Absolutely, but "evidence of a crime" is a legally distinct thing, separate from "evidence of a behavior [that justifies an RFL seizure.]"Perhaps not evidence of any crime, but there is a requirement for evidence of a behavior on the part of the subject that warrants a RFL seizure.
You, sir, have correctly identified one of the many problems. I have known a lot of judges over the years, and the ones I have known over the years almost always prefer to err on the side of caution. Perhaps especially because AR judges are elected, none of them wants to be on the news as "the judge that let Mass Shooter Mike keep his guns."....The danger, of course, is that the process is ripe for abuse by vindictive family members or close acquaintances, in much the same way a traditional temporary restraining order is abused during divorce proceedings. . . . . We are at the mercy of the court attempt to weed out the frivolous petitions from a genuine emergency requiring immediate action on the part of law enforcement to avert a tragedy. And we are also at the mercy of the process to determine how quickly after a seizure of guns the subject is afforded an opportunity to present his side of the case regarding the validity of the original petition....
I've called for strict scrutiny in 2A challenges for years, but that ain't what we got in Bruen. (We might have actually gotten something better, though.)Deprivation of a civil right, in this case the 2A, should be subject to strict scrutiny level of review and not some flippant accusation.
I’m more worried about my ammo in such an event. I have enough 22 to cause concern. And it’s worth more than the 22s are. Does anyone know if they confiscate the ammo? I also guess that doesn’t get returned.
I know some folks that split up. Then it was she filed an epo on him “she was afraid of him, he has guns”. Then he filed an epo on her, she “had a gun and was crazy”. I was in the middle of it sorta as I was a friend that was always around. Nothing ever happened to me thankfully. But it woke me up and now I ain’t around folks like that.
Unfortunately vindictive people can and do lie. They also enlist friends or family to support them. Seen this play out with a coworker who’s angry ex who filed a protection order using her friends to back up her claims. Police came to workplace, seized carry weapon and escorted him home to confiscate other firearms. Long story follows without a happy ending.
This type of scenario is what I expect from the majority of red flag reporting. Even though laws may be in place to deter false reporting, I strongly doubt that they will be enforced in any meaningful way.
The potential for saving lives may exist with red flag seizures but the cost to gun owners will be high.
This could be argued. One suspects enforcement would have a lot to do with the local culture, demographics (size of the community, preponderance of age groups, level of education in the region), and unfortunately, besides the political bent in the region, the training and funding of local law enforcement agencies and prosecutors' offices.Even though laws may be in place to deter false reporting, I strongly doubt that they will be enforced in any meaningful way.
As much as I'm opposed to so-called "red flag laws," it does appear that there's no evidence this state's law has been misused -- yet. Over 90% of orders requested since the law became effective have come from law enforcement, and then only after an episode of serious behavioral disturbance and/or wholly unjustified brandishing, threatening or firing of a firearm. The judges seem to have been pretty restrained thus far, and as yet, no egregious cases have surfaced of disgruntled ex-spouses/partners/lover or family child custody disputes indicating "weaponized" use. None of this excuses the fact that the law exists in the first place.I don't think people realize just how common it is whether it's red flag laws or restraining orders or their equivalent. People lie and weaponize them all the time and when law enforcement shows up there is zero discretion no matter how much they sympathize. The order comes from a judge and they will be leaving with your firearms. It's so common.
The potential for saving lives may exist with red flag seizures but the cost to gun owners will be high.
If I had the slightest inkling that I might be "red-flagged," so to speak, I would put most of my guns in secure off-site storage
Well, being single with few close friends that come over to my house to see what firearms I may or may not have, and living in Texas, I don't think I have to worry about red flag confiscations. But if circumstances were different I sure as heck would have some contingency plans should certain events trigger even the possibility of this happening.In California, that in itself would be criminal (misdemeanor). It also includes ammunition if I'm not mistaken.
edit: link
I don't even know all the guns that I have. How will anyone else? I know where they are though.The family members that typically initiate a "red flag" procedure presumably know what guns the person has. So this is not as difficult as it seems.
Last I heard, in KY, an epo only revokes your ccdw permit and you only have to remit your carry gun. But your other guns are not confiscated. Now I don’t know if they changed it or not. It may be case to case? But I got my info from someone that had an epo filed against them via an ex. A different person that mentioned previously. It’s a common thing here. Lawyers recommend it during divorce, from what I’m told.
With regards to the # of cases.State by state laws are going to vary, but most say that once a complaint is received, there must be a hearing before a judge within 24 hours to determine if probable cause exists before firearms are deemed to be confiscated. Some states allow FFLs to hold them or family members not within same household (I don’t think that would be a safe alternative). Not a perfect answer though. It’s not a case where you’re going to be woke up to a SRT entry into your house. For the most part, you’re going to know about it. Each case will be unique. Now, if you have a history that is “questionable “ or probable cause to think something could happen, then there may be an emergency decision from the courts. And it has to come from the courts, not the police.
Colorado passed their law in 2020 and there have been 5 cases where firearms were ordered to be turned in in El Paso County.