Are Negligent Discharges Inevitable?

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People can disagree with me 'til the cows come home, I don't take it personally, but I have no use for people who feel compelled to state the number of years they've been handling firearms, only to add that they never have, nor never will have, an ND simply because they "always" follow the 4 Rules.
People who are so cocksure of themselves that they think they can never screw up are dangerous.
 
I don't think they are inevitable, but even though I have been carrying a gun for 10+ years, I am still very weirded out about carrying a chambered weapon. No so for my smaller pocket guns for some reason, I carry them chambered at all times without much worry, although if I wind up in a situation where I'm sitting across from somebody I am always hating that my gun is pointed at them in my pocket and always find myself repositioning and trying to scootch them out of the firing path even though there's really no way to ND in that case, but I always think "crazier things have happened" and generally adhere to rule #1.

You certainly can get complacent when you get used to doing things. Like @dogtown tom said "familiarity breeds contempt" or something to that effect. I remember when I first started my electrical apprenticeship years ago, I was pretty proud of the fact that it had been almost a year with no zaps and my employer assured me it was going to happen, I had such a healthy respect for electricity I wondered if it ever would.

Well lo and behold, here it is years later and I can't even count how many times I've been shocked but none of them would have happened if I followed rule #1 in electricity (always work in a dead panel) just as fatalities from ND's would never happen if rule #1 is followed there.....
 
Unintentional discharges are probably something that will never completely leave us, no matter what. There will always be somebody who isn't paying attention while handling a firearm. You can reduce the frequency of such discharges through training, and to some extent through hardware, but I don't see that you're ever going to get rid of it entirely. Human beings are human after all.
 
Negligent discharges are inevitable on a population level but not inevitable on an individual level. I've had one, back when I was 21, new to owning firearms, and not as knowledgeable as I am now. Put a .32 ACP round into drywall and a stud. Didn't come out the other side, which also taught me something about .32 ACP as well.
 
Negligent discharges are inevitable on a population level but not inevitable on an individual level. I've had one, back when I was 21, new to owning firearms, and not as knowledgeable as I am now. Put a .32 ACP round into drywall and a stud. Didn't come out the other side, which also taught me something about .32 ACP as well.
If you had not hit the stud would it perhaps gone through the wall?
 
If you had not hit the stud would it perhaps gone through the wall?
I assume so. I sure am glad it did hit a stud, though. I was very fortunate. What happened was that I was clearing a Kel-Tec P32 and at the time I thought I needed to pull the trigger so the springs would be at 'rest,' even though the P32 is a double-action pistol and springs only wear when they're cycled. I also erred and while the gun was pointed in a safe-ish direction and was in no danger of hitting someone directly, the safest direction would have been at the exterior wall of the basement apartment, which was backstopped by the foundation and then four feet of earth as opposed to the interior wall, which could have entered my neighbor's apartment albeit at a point very low to the floor and angled downward. Definitely won't forget that lesson, I tell you what.

I was terrified the whole weekend that there would be a bullet hole in my neighbor's wall. Fortunately this was college, so when I went over the next day to say that I'd had an accident and damaged my drywall and wanted to make sure I didn't damage their side of it, I found to my tremendous relief that tiny little bullet didn't make it out of the wall on the other side!

... and again, this was college, so the idea of someone doing something stupid in a college apartment and damaging the apartment didn't make my neighbor bat an eye.
 
I assume so. I sure am glad it did hit a stud, though. I was very fortunate. What happened was that I was clearing a Kel-Tec P32 and at the time I thought I needed to pull the trigger so the springs would be at 'rest,' even though the P32 is a double-action pistol and springs only wear when they're cycled. I also erred and while the gun was pointed in a safe-ish direction and was in no danger of hitting someone directly, the safest direction would have been at the exterior wall of the basement apartment, which was backstopped by the foundation and then four feet of earth as opposed to the interior wall, which could have entered my neighbor's apartment albeit at a point very low to the floor and angled downward. Definitely won't forget that lesson, I tell you what.

I was terrified the whole weekend that there would be a bullet hole in my neighbor's wall. Fortunately this was college, so when I went over the next day to say that I'd had an accident and damaged my drywall and wanted to make sure I didn't damage their side of it, I found to my tremendous relief that tiny little bullet didn't make it out of the wall on the other side!

... and again, this was college, so the idea of someone doing something stupid in a college apartment and damaging the apartment didn't make my neighbor bat an eye.
Now I want to test my Kel Tec P32 on drywall between the studs but my house has plaster. ;)
 
I have seen some very concerning complacency among those who occasionally turn up at the trap range. The regulars I shoot with are all proper tight with their gear but every once in a while, a New York or CT license plate rolls in, older guy typically steps out and proceeds to sweep in every direction, litterally as though they've never even heard safe handling rules and don't even know how to run their equipment. Call for a bird, "click" "oh hey hang on a sec" "click". Swears at the gun like "it's" the stupid one. One of our guys walks over and reminds him that his own gun needs the safety switched off after every shot. Smh.

The first ND I ever saw someone do was at the trap range last year, put one right in the dirt. One of the out of state NY members...... gotta love that.

I am not without sin, I am always very safe and never want to have a mishap of any kind but while it wasn't a ND it was almost just as bad in my view. I had my Ruger 7-08 in the corner of my room for about 4 or 5 months after retiring it at the end of hunting season. My buddy walked over to it, picked it up, cycled the bolt and gave me an incredulous, chin hit the floor look and goes "BRO!" so I walked over toward him and he tilts the action toward me to show that he was extracting a live round with the safety off. To this day I know it was my own stupidity and complacency but I just couldn't believe I left a hot rifle safety off unsecured in the corner of my room.

I have always been very vigilant about unloading my gun before I get into my car after a hunt so as not to travel with a loaded firearm but I guess this must've been a late hunt and was off my game and just popped the mag out forgetting to extract the chambered cartridge. But I usually check it multiple times thereafter so still puzzled as to how I let that happen.

I had a game warden give me a $400 citation and had my gun confiscated until the fine was paid and couldn't hunt for a year because I was getting ready to walk into the woods with my gun (that I loaded after I exited the car) and the game warden popped out of nowhere before I was about to head into the woods and was still next to my car. As they were heading over to me in a very hurried fashion, I set the gun laid across the back seat and asked them what I could help them with, assuming they wanted to check my license but the warden said "I need to take this rifle and check it" so he grabbed it he cycled a round in and said "I'm here to cite you for traveling with a loaded rifle in your vehicle". Smh.:fire:

That was cute, I thought it was pretty lousy but in any case, it was a good reminder not to ever set my loaded gun anywhere near a vehicle........
 
As an NRA RSO, I would say never say never. We are all human, we all make errors and have lapses in attention and risk assessment.
I'm 59, have been shooting for about 50 of those 59 years if we count BB guns when I was a kid. So far, no NDs for me, thank you God.
Unfortunately, in a sense, guns are deadly and an ND can be deadly. I'm pretty militant as an RSO. If someone does something really stupid and sweeps
or has an ND, I am kicking them out. But I would never say everyone MUST have a spotless record of gun handling and gun safety because if you spend a decent amount
of time with guns, your chances of it happening increase simply by the laws of probability. I can forgive bad trigger safety if I warn them and they correct it. But if they persist,
they get the boot, it's just too dangerous to hope they don't shoot me, themselves or another shooter.

All of our job to make sure that ANYONE who handles any gun does it while obeying the four rules because they do provide pretty amazingly good protection. if someone has an ND, as many who
have posted here, if you are obeying the other three laws minus the one you violated about the trigger, at least you have a good chance of not killing or wounding yourself or
someone in the vicinity.

If I am at a range shooting and not the RSO, and I see anything anyone is doing that is unsafe gun handling, if the RSO doesn't immediately correct them and or boot them, I leave immediately. It's not worth
dying to practice. These days, I really dislike shooting anywhere where it's not just myself and any guests I have bought. At times, its unavoidable but I keep my head on a swivel. Luckily the
majority seem to be safe shooters, but it only takes one unsafe shooter to kill me, my guests or themselves accidentally because they cannot follow the four rules.
 
I had two that I remember. Both when I was in my teens. The first hurt nothing but the dirt underneath dads tractor.

The second luckily hurt nothing, but was DAMN close. I knew better, but made a mistake. I got a scare that I will never forget, and if there is a god he was protecting us that day. Its been about 40 years and I still have not forgotten that ND.

It can and does happen. It shouldn't. ALWAYS treat them like they are loaded. ALWAYS.

-Jeff
 
From what Ive learned being around ranges and shops all my life.........
those that think it wont ever happen, are the ones that have it happen.

Don't get complacent. Double and triple check stuff. Avoid distractions.
AND..........understand that the rules for safety are ABSOLUTE.

Too many people like to argue that last bit.
That mentality is just asking for tragedy.
 
Too many people like to argue that last bit. That mentality is just asking for tragedy.

I am a negligent discharge waiting to happen because of firearm ownership, and each day without one is a small victory wherein the risk of such was minimized through discipline, methodology, luck, and perhaps some divine intervention.
 
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I had one when loading 45's for my 1911. I has checking slide close. And pulled the trigger by error. The bullet is still in my wall. Im lucky it didn't hit me. Or go through the floor and hit someone down stairs.

I learned the hard way that even if you safely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber (with a 1911) hundreds of times, it only takes one slip to make your day interesting.

Luckily the rest of the rules were followed and only my floor and pride were injured.

The experience has, however, really drilled in more safe practices that I still use decades later.
 
That is a terrible attitude. Negligent discharges are 100% preventable. I have been shooting for most of my life, as well as spending more than 3 years deployed with the Army. While deployed, I carried 2 guns (M9 and M4) everyday, and almost always “hot.” 0 negligent discharges from me or anyone on the team I was running missions with.
Saying negligent discharges are going to happen is like saying if you drive long enough, eventually you’ll run somebody over.
 
I had a black powder pistol with set triggers go off before I was on target. I was pointing downrange and it probably hit the berm behind the target. Still counts as a negligent discharge.
 
Negligent discharges are 100% preventable.
Then why do NDs continue to occur at every level of firearms ownership and professional firearms use?
I have been shooting for most of my life, as well as spending more than 3 years deployed with the Army. While deployed, I carried 2 guns (M9 and M4) everyday, and almost always “hot.” 0 negligent discharges from me or anyone on the team I was running missions with.
And to think we used to joke about the Glock marketing team's "perfection" slogan. I was at a base in Iraq for a while and the clearing barrels coming in were taking regular hits. Here's a clue: NDs were happening, few would cop to actually having one, and it wasn't talked about. And in my second career, in spite of a superb team of certified LE firearms instructors (like me), we still had sporadic NDs. I guess we couldn't convince our officers that they weren't allowed to have NDs.

As I noted earlier in the thread, the topic of NDs always seems to bring the word "hubris" to mind. But I am happy we're bringing in new THR members with such stellar records of personal firearms safety!

Saying negligent discharges are going to happen is like saying if you drive long enough, eventually you’ll run somebody over.
Ah, just no. Maybe like saying, if you drive long enough, eventually you may be involved in a vehicular collision.
 
I was at a base in Iraq for a while and the clearing barrels coming in were taking regular hits. Here's a clue: NDs were happening, few would cop to actually having one, and it wasn't talked about. And in my second career, in spite of a superb team of certified LE firearms instructors (like me), we still had sporadic NDs. I guess we couldn't convince our officers that they weren't allowed to have NDs.

Based on my personal experience as a senior NCO, I'm betting I can nail the cause to this one.

Complacency, pure and simple.

There's no better setup for a Negligent Discharge than the complacent behavior that sets in with a person whose done a particular procedure a thousand times at the end of his watch when he's really looking forward to turning over his weapon and doing something else.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to yank a knot in the scrote of a watchstander I was supervising the unloading of his weapon who just "went through the motions" like a speed demon faster than I was reading the procedure because he's done it so many times he can recite it by heart.

Unloading and clearing a weapon is a clear, concise, and deliberate procedure. There's absolutely no need to rush into a negligent discharge.
 
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