So why no STG 44 clones again?

marksman13 · Jun 30, 2022

robin banks said:
if Norinco wasnt banned they would make them to sell for $400 firing the 39 round

There’s zero chance they would sell for $400. The 22LR version is $500. Cheap AKs and SKS rifles sell for $500-$1500.

citizenconn · Jun 30, 2022

How about this? The website says 2022 and shows Shipping Soon. It looks like someone else is wishing the same wishes as you. You even get a choice of 4 calibers and the website claims you can get conversion kits so will only need one rifle. And $200 lower than my suggested price of $2K.

https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg-sturmgewehr-stg-n/

https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg-stg-caliber-conversion-kit/

18623355_1055920704507548_2329876034423514108_o-768x576.jpg

If someone else already mentioned this, I apologize. I browsed all the comments but didn't see it.

BudrowBob · Jul 1, 2022

citizenconn said:
How about this? The website says 2022 and shows Shipping Soon. It looks like someone else is wishing the same wishes as you. You even get a choice of 4 calibers and the website claims you can get conversion kits so will only need one rifle. And $200 lower than my suggested price of $2K.

https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg-sturmgewehr-stg-n/

https://www.hmgunworks.com/product/hmg-stg-caliber-conversion-kit/

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If someone else already mentioned this, I apologize. I browsed all the comments but didn't see it.

You might want to do some additional research.....

This article is from 2020 and they still expecting to ship soon.
https://medium.com/@tanieltwoshot/w...he-hill-mac-gunworks-sturmgewehr-9d1074cac75e

citizenconn · Jul 1, 2022

BudrowBob said:
You might want to do some additional research.....

This article is from 2020 and they still expecting to ship soon.
https://medium.com/@tanieltwoshot/w...he-hill-mac-gunworks-sturmgewehr-9d1074cac75e

I don't want one so I don't need to do any research. Just putting it out there as a possibility to rule out.

robin banks · Jul 1, 2022

marksman13 said:
There’s zero chance they would sell for $400. The 22LR version is $500. Cheap AKs and SKS rifles sell for $500-$1500.

that is funny cause in canada they were selling their forged M1A for $499. maybe more now cause of the disaster of the supply chain

marksman13 · Jul 1, 2022

robin banks said:
that is funny cause in canada they were selling their forged M1A for $499. maybe more now cause of the disaster of the supply chain

They WERE. There’s not even a Norinco SKS on Gunbroker right now for less than $600.

robin banks · Jul 1, 2022

marksman13 said:
They WERE. There’s not even a Norinco SKS on Gunbroker right now for less than $600.

I am not talking about old rifles marked up cause of the mad dash to buy a gun. I am talking if Norinco made NEW STG 44

CapnMac · Jul 1, 2022

robin banks said:
but would not CAD systems make short work of getting the tolerances right?

Actually, no. There are several sets of tolerances. One is of a part's given dimensions. It must needs be x,y,z ±nn typically per a gauge. Then, the way the parts fit together has to have certain tolerances. A sear typically must have a +0/-mm fit to a hammer, because the engagement needs to be near absolute, but needs enough "slack" to fall out of lock-up as well. The final assembly winds up with tolerances, too.

This is why "reverse engineering" is so hugely complicated. You have a Thing. Thing Works. The Parts in thing will range from Maximum Permitted Size to Minimum Permitted Size, and rather a lot of "in between." By takign the parts out and putting a micrometer to them you only know their size, not their tolerance fit. This is information that is in Technical Data Packages, and is far, far more important than "blue prints."

The machine tool you have determine what technical drawings are required. The TDP gives you the go/no-go.

robin banks said:
if Norinco wasnt banned they would make them to sell for $400 firing the 39 round

How, exactly, they get 6mm more receiver in tolerance out of no where remains an open question. A 38super (9x21) does not fit in a 380 action (9x17). Not casually.

Also, PRC is in demographic decline, and is suffering a severe labor rate spike in recent years. What they can do on already-built machinery is no longer a measure of what they can make, today. PRC is outsourcing labor to Laos and Bangladesh, just to break even right now.

robin banks said:
that is funny cause in canada they were selling their forged M1A for $499. maybe more now cause of the disaster of the supply chain

You may not be aware, but Justin "I'm not Castro's Love Child" Trudeau banned all the "assaulty" guns in Canadia a year or so ago (made sure to ban Arfcom and ATGM, too), before recently doubling down on all handguns.

marksman13 · Jul 1, 2022

robin banks said:
I am not talking about old rifles marked up cause of the mad dash to buy a gun. I am talking if Norinco made NEW STG 44

You are completely out of touch with the modern firearms market in America. A cheap, Ruger American is gonna run $350+. You are never going to find a modern, center-fire semi-auto worth owning under the $500 mark again. It’s just not realistic. An STG-44 clone in a center fire chambering is going to run $1000+. Guaranteed.

Slamfire · Jul 1, 2022

marksman13 said:
You are completely out of touch with the modern firearms market in America. A cheap, Ruger American is gonna run $350+. You are never going to find a modern, center-fire semi-auto worth owning under the $500 mark again. It’s just not realistic. An STG-44 clone in a center fire chambering is going to run $1000+. Guaranteed.

When I go to the show room of the local gun store, I almost have a seizure on the prices of firearms and ammunition. :what:

I can't afford anything I own! :cuss:

I really don't know if I care enough about the STG 44 to pay over a thousand dollars. It would be fun to play with one, take it down, see the interrelationship of parts, but I don't know enough about the things to know if the triggers are good, and whether it is accurate. And with my eyeballs, how do I scope the thing?

robin banks · Jul 1, 2022

CapnMac said:
Actually, no. There are several sets of tolerances. One is of a part's given dimensions. It must needs be x,y,z ±nn typically per a gauge. Then, the way the parts fit together has to have certain tolerances. A sear typically must have a +0/-mm fit to a hammer, because the engagement needs to be near absolute, but needs enough "slack" to fall out of lock-up as well. The final assembly winds up with tolerances, too.

This is why "reverse engineering" is so hugely complicated. You have a Thing. Thing Works. The Parts in thing will range from Maximum Permitted Size to Minimum Permitted Size, and rather a lot of "in between." By takign the parts out and putting a micrometer to them you only know their size, not their tolerance fit. This is information that is in Technical Data Packages, and is far, far more important than "blue prints."

The machine tool you have determine what technical drawings are required. The TDP gives you the go/no-go.

How, exactly, they get 6mm more receiver in tolerance out of no where remains an open question. A 38super (9x21) does not fit in a 380 action (9x17). Not casually.

Also, PRC is in demographic decline, and is suffering a severe labor rate spike in recent years. What they can do on already-built machinery is no longer a measure of what they can make, today. PRC is outsourcing labor to Laos and Bangladesh, just to break even right now.

You may not be aware, but Justin "I'm not Castro's Love Child" Trudeau banned all the "assaulty" guns in Canadia a year or so ago (made sure to ban Arfcom and ATGM, too), before recently doubling down on all handguns.

would their M1A with a 5 rd mag no flash hider still be an assault rifle in Canada? I will try to look that up

CapnMac · Jul 2, 2022

robin banks said:
would their M1A with a 5 rd mag no flash hider still be an assault rifle in Canada? I will try to look that up

Remember out Canadian Brothers do not use a "feature set"--they just have a black list of "badness" (no NLAWs for you, eh.)

Also, that PolyTech M14 is being built on machinery & fixtures first created in the 80s, forty years' ago--very much bought and paid for long ago. They just throw metal at the things and crank out product, when they feel like it.
Having seen some of these, I cannot say I was impressed. Canadian opinion of them was on par (or lower) than US opinions on HiPoint. (That's charitable, I've seen better finished Jimenez and Jennings.)

The HMG versions were going to be north of two grand each; the few working semi version "out in the wild" are in the US$5K range.
Which is not, really, that out of line for similar conversions. The Ohio Ordnance BAR is US$2K-3K. A decent 1919A4 will be a similar price (the tripod and linking machine that much again). The Semi M-60 and M-240 and RPK and their ilk out there are also in these sorts of price ranges.

It's very much the difference between wanting a Mooney versus a Cessna or Piper. If you want one bad enough, you have to "pay to play."

12Bravo20 · Jul 3, 2022

CapnMac said:
Actually, no. There are several sets of tolerances. One is of a part's given dimensions. It must needs be x,y,z ±nn typically per a gauge. Then, the way the parts fit together has to have certain tolerances. A sear typically must have a +0/-mm fit to a hammer, because the engagement needs to be near absolute, but needs enough "slack" to fall out of lock-up as well. The final assembly winds up with tolerances, too.

This is why "reverse engineering" is so hugely complicated. You have a Thing. Thing Works. The Parts in thing will range from Maximum Permitted Size to Minimum Permitted Size, and rather a lot of "in between." By takign the parts out and putting a micrometer to them you only know their size, not their tolerance fit. This is information that is in Technical Data Packages, and is far, far more important than "blue prints."

The machine tool you have determine what technical drawings are required. The TDP gives you the go/no-go.

And this is where the term "tolerance stacking" comes into play. The more parts required and/or more parts made by different manufacturers that are added into the design, the worse tolerance stacking gets.

I can give a perfect example where people get bit by tolerance stacking all of the time. I see it quite often with the 80% pistol builders. You have an aftermarket frame, aftermarket parts from various manufacturers, aftermarket slides, and aftermarket barrels. Sometimes they all fit and work just fine but not always. I have seen a lot of builders have tolerance stacking issues with their builds. That is why You will see me always recommend using OEM Glock arts for 80% builds. Again this is partly due to aftermarket parts manufacturers having to revers engineer the parts.

The reason we don't see too many tolerance stacking issues with something like the AR15 platform is that there is a set of standards and also the blueprints are readily available for any manufacturer without the need to revers engineer stuff.

robin banks · Jul 3, 2022

CapnMac said:
Remember out Canadian Brothers do not use a "feature set"--they just have a black list of "badness" (no NLAWs for you, eh.)

Also, that PolyTech M14 is being built on machinery & fixtures first created in the 80s, forty years' ago--very much bought and paid for long ago. They just throw metal at the things and crank out product, when they feel like it.
Having seen some of these, I cannot say I was impressed. Canadian opinion of them was on par (or lower) than US opinions on HiPoint. (That's charitable, I've seen better finished Jimenez and Jennings.)

The HMG versions were going to be north of two grand each; the few working semi version "out in the wild" are in the US$5K range.
Which is not, really, that out of line for similar conversions. The Ohio Ordnance BAR is US$2K-3K. A decent 1919A4 will be a similar price (the tripod and linking machine that much again). The Semi M-60 and M-240 and RPK and their ilk out there are also in these sorts of price ranges.

It's very much the difference between wanting a Mooney versus a Cessna or Piper. If you want one bad enough, you have to "pay to play."[/
QUOTE]
me and my friends in the 90's bought Norinco and Poly tech MIA's when they were $399-499. after dumping the stocks putting on cheap USGI fiberglass stock cutting the tack welds on the cut down flash hiders putting on a full flash hider we were in business. they were some of the most accurate standard MIA's we ever shot. that was with $3.99 a box Norinco 308 ammo. naturally they shot better with AA 2520 powder and 165 gr bullets

So why no STG 44 clones again?

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